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Friday, July 17, 2009
In considering marriage, stick with tradition
What will you do if your independent-minded daughter who is going to get married says she wants to do away with the fuss of a wedding?
There is a good chance that she is only informing you, not asking for your permission. You know how kids are these days. Still, you'd tell her: Don't.
Not that she will listen. But we parents have to try, so our daughter at least has the statistics on her side when she is leaving the nest.
And the statistics for women who marry without a wedding ceremony are not good at all: 20% of them end up facing physical and sexual violence. The odds go down to 15% if they had their wedding, and to 9% if they had both the wedding and a marriage certificate.
No, I am not making this up. It is from research entitled "Families With/Without Experience of Violence," by Churnrurtai Kanchanachitra and Suporn Jarassit from the Institute For Population and Social Research, Mahidol University.
True, how couples marry cannot guarantee a smooth marriage or prevent divorce. But we don't want to take a chance with our girls, do we?
Apart from wedding ceremonies, other variables in the study, which covers 2,816 women in Nakhon Sawan and Bangkok, include spousal communications, protection from relatives, and childhood experiences. Interestingly, a love marriage cannot guarantee if marital life will be free of domestic violence. The odds are quite close (about 10-16%) whether the marriage is decided by the couple, by the woman or the man alone, or by their parents. The risk is highest, however, if the marriage is the woman's decision alone.
The wedding ceremony factor, meanwhile, is more important than who made the marriage decision. Even more important than the marriage certificate itself. Although a marriage paper is often equated with marital commitment and security, the study shows it does not guarantee violence-free nuptials. In fact, the risk is highest (55.6%) for women who did have the marriage papers but not the wedding ceremony, followed by those who neither had the paper nor ceremony (54%), while those who had the ceremony but not the marriage certificate fared better (48%). In other words, the social recognition of the nuptials is stronger than the law in protecting women. The study, confirming the importance of tradition, shows that women who married without any ceremonies faced the highest risk of domestic violence, twice higher than women who had both a wedding ceremony and marriage papers.
So for any single women out there who want to take the plunge while retaining their legal and financial independence, it is wise to follow tradition. The wedding ceremony is not only for your parents, it is for your own future safety.
How to reduce the risk further?
It is generally believed that if the couple stays with the wife's family, there is nothing to fear regarding domestic violence. The study shows otherwise.
Be it living with parents or in-laws, having relatives living nearby, or frequent visits from relatives, all this is no help if the relatives cannot really provide support. But if they can, the violence will drop by half.
Unfortunately, this support does not help at all when it comes to sexual violence.
Lack of communication, frequent heated arguments, and childhood experiences of domestic violence figure prominently as the factors affecting domestic violence. Though easier said than done, more open talk and self-restraint help put the brakes on violent outbursts and end the vicious cycle.
And check the future spouse's family background. It is bad enough if one partner experienced domestic violence in childhood. But according to the study, if both husband and wife, as well as their mothers, were victims of domestic violence, the chances of wife-beating in that household would be 100%.
Not convinced? This study (in Thai) and other research on Thai families in the social and demographic transition make interesting reading. Go to:http://www.ipsr.mahidol.ac.th/IPSR/AnnualConference/ConferenceV/Article2009EN.htm
Read commentComment 1
jack 
date : 17/07/2009 time : 09:36
date : 17/07/2009 time : 09:36
I think the reason why the incidence of DV is higher in the couples living without wedding ceremony is that the samples include a large number of couples who CANNOT (not WILL NOT) hold a ceremony because of poverty, dissent from parents etc....So I think your daughter is all right without it. But if the real reason that you raised up this issue here is "I want to see her in a wedding dress, or something, you have the right to tell her to do that. If your daughter is mature and affectionate enough, she will not dare to disappoint her mother. I think this is more important indicater if her marriage will be successful than the ceremony itself.
Comment 2
Vic date : 17/07/2009 time : 16:26
date : 17/07/2009 time : 16:26
Forrest Gump: My momma always said, "Life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."
Comment 3
In the USA date : 17/07/2009 time : 22:06
date : 17/07/2009 time : 22:06
The sampling size was too small to draw any real conclusions. The total adult female population of the area was probably 3 to 5 million, but the sampling was only 2,800.
When you add in the possible percentage variaton due to the sampling size, the percentage differences could be insignificant.
One big problem I have with this is that the other factors were not discussed, employment, education, age, economic state.
There is a saying in the west, which may have an equivalent in the east, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Be careful drawing conclusions from this.
When you add in the possible percentage variaton due to the sampling size, the percentage differences could be insignificant.
One big problem I have with this is that the other factors were not discussed, employment, education, age, economic state.
There is a saying in the west, which may have an equivalent in the east, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Be careful drawing conclusions from this.
Comment 4
Tim date : 17/07/2009 time : 22:28
date : 17/07/2009 time : 22:28
Concern with what or what not a couple has, is not the issue. Studies can show you anything you want, if you focus your groupings and analyical tools to target your goals.
The problem is the acceptance, lack of education and ultimately the lack of enforcement.
If people honestly believe a wedding dress will reduce the chance of DV, then they also need to be educated.
The problem is the acceptance, lack of education and ultimately the lack of enforcement.
If people honestly believe a wedding dress will reduce the chance of DV, then they also need to be educated.
Comment 5
Sunthorn Skulpone date : 18/07/2009 time : 00:35
date : 18/07/2009 time : 00:35
I have four daughters, so I am well qualified to express my opinion on this subject. Ceremony is not important, expensive ceremony is insane. By expensive, I mean it is more than what you can afford. My daughter number two got married a few years back, they are still paying for the wedding now. My daughter number four is planning her wedding now and Mom is begging her not to outspend her big sister. I have a feeling she is not going to listen to Mom. So, my advice is stay out of the planning stage and just go to the wedding and enjoy.
Comment 6
Dave date : 18/07/2009 time : 01:32
date : 18/07/2009 time : 01:32
As long as there is not some stupid dowry to pay, I think weddings are great, and don't have to be expensive either.
Comment 7
Bed of Roses date : 18/07/2009 time : 05:44
date : 18/07/2009 time : 05:44
Imho the Thai traditional wedding ceremony is a wonderful way for the betrothed couple to show each other, the parents, extended family and, indeed, the whole village, their love for each other now and for the future. It's also great fun for one and all and brings out the best of Thai culture. Official registration of the marriage is a dry and boring procedure, but an essential follow-up. But if the ceremony is used as a means of showing off such as by displaying gazillions of Baht as sin-sod, or having the evening reception at the highest-so venue, don't expect the couple to live together happily for long.
Comment 8
Mike date : 18/07/2009 time : 11:33
date : 18/07/2009 time : 11:33
Your advice, by looking at statistics, is ridiculous. It wouldn't be ridiculous if the brides did choose to have a ceremony because they followed any advice from their parents. That certainly was not the case. So if your daughter choose to have a ceremony because of your advice she can't be compared with those brides in that research. Please be more scientific !
Comment 9
Parbati mohanty date : 18/07/2009 time : 14:32
date : 18/07/2009 time : 14:32
Dear Sir,
i habe read your artikel it is very intersting about weding as a bachler
and oldermann i think weding is allways expencive but only ones in life time
regards
Comment 10
Desmond Malone date : 19/07/2009 time : 02:02
date : 19/07/2009 time : 02:02Getting married at too young an age with know independant means is the problem!in Thailand. In the Uk couples meet when they are both employed and after getting married they continue working and save up together with thoughts of buying or renting their own home when they are more finacially sound
Getting married without a bob or two behind you poverty is a recipe for disaster.
DM.
!
Comment 11
Doug date : 19/07/2009 time : 08:08
date : 19/07/2009 time : 08:08
Dear K.Sanitsuda, I often enjoy reading your work in BKK post, but this must have been penned while you were daydreaming. This is the worst form of journalism - simply accepting someone's analysis and making a story about it - without thinking about the true causes. I'll continue to read your work but you have certainly not gained any respect with this story - sorry.
Doug
Doug
Comment 12
david date : 19/07/2009 time : 19:00
date : 19/07/2009 time : 19:00
This is unbelievable. The answer to this problem is not about papers or expensive ceremonies. It is in teaching men when they are boys that this is UNEXCEPTABLE. If society were to demand that those who do this be ridiculed, arrested, prosecuted and jailed it would be of far greater service to women in Thailand than "tradition". The tradition in Thailand is that no matter what you do, about half of the relationships have domestic violence according to your own statistics. I think that calls for a new way of handling the issue if you actually want it to change and aren't just trying to get girls to be pliant to their parents wishes by frightening them. This tradition and this article are a disgrace.
Comment 13
artitk date : 19/07/2009 time : 19:19
date : 19/07/2009 time : 19:19
I saw quite a few farangs disapprove of this article. That is to be expected - they just don't get it. True or not true, we can't take chance with our girls. Wedding, however,doesn't has to be expensive or big especially if you have not much money. Start of marriage live with debt is not good. But if the couples are really struggle from the begining, may be your daughther want to marry the wrong man.
Comment 14
Sunthorn Skulpone date : 19/07/2009 time : 23:53
date : 19/07/2009 time : 23:53
In defence of Khun Sanitsuda, this is not the worst form of journalism, Doug (comment 11). There are two sides for every coins. Remember the seven blind men and the elephant story. Obviously, Sanitsuda is no expert on mass communication, but I think she is honnest about what she wrote. Most writers at Bangkokpost write to please someone. Now that is the worst form of jounalism. At Bangkokpost, if you are too good you get fired like Khun Kanjana Spindler (my favorite writer).
Comment 15
Martin date : 20/07/2009 time : 02:24
date : 20/07/2009 time : 02:24
I think the analysis and Khun Sanitsuda's recommendation are confusing cause with effect.
Look at the cause(s) of why people (and especially a woman) would want to forego a wedding ceremony in a society where they are the norm.
Either a) The couple has little money - always a recipe for disaster in a new marriage
Or b) One or both of the partners are highly individualistic and non conformist in nature. We all know that the secret to longevity in marriage is compromise, and a frequent subjugation of one's own wishes to the marriage. If one or both in the couple are unwilling to have a wedding ceremony for the sake of their parents and societal norms, especially in a still traditional country like Thailand, how much compromising will they be prepared to do in their marriage?
Look at the cause(s) of why people (and especially a woman) would want to forego a wedding ceremony in a society where they are the norm.
Either a) The couple has little money - always a recipe for disaster in a new marriage
Or b) One or both of the partners are highly individualistic and non conformist in nature. We all know that the secret to longevity in marriage is compromise, and a frequent subjugation of one's own wishes to the marriage. If one or both in the couple are unwilling to have a wedding ceremony for the sake of their parents and societal norms, especially in a still traditional country like Thailand, how much compromising will they be prepared to do in their marriage?
Comment 16
Brian date : 20/07/2009 time : 03:26
date : 20/07/2009 time : 03:26
artik
No, we Farangs get it. We just don't approve of this in the 21st century, wherein Thai women are just beginning to gain the rights to which they have been entitled for far too long.
Sin sord is an outmoded concept from days when women were expected to stay home can care for the household, their husbands and children. Now, mosty Thai women work, often much harder and more efficiently than Thai men. The need for sin sord has long passed. It has now devolved into a garrish and tacky show of often (in the case of many upcountry weddings) fake wealth and one-upmanship.
What's really needed is strong family law that protects women and children from abuse and dead-beat Thai men who father children, then abandon them at a whim, to chase after some new woman with whom they will repeat the scenario.
No, we Farangs get it. We just don't approve of this in the 21st century, wherein Thai women are just beginning to gain the rights to which they have been entitled for far too long.
Sin sord is an outmoded concept from days when women were expected to stay home can care for the household, their husbands and children. Now, mosty Thai women work, often much harder and more efficiently than Thai men. The need for sin sord has long passed. It has now devolved into a garrish and tacky show of often (in the case of many upcountry weddings) fake wealth and one-upmanship.
What's really needed is strong family law that protects women and children from abuse and dead-beat Thai men who father children, then abandon them at a whim, to chase after some new woman with whom they will repeat the scenario.
Comment 17
Korn Earthworm date : 20/07/2009 time : 06:23
date : 20/07/2009 time : 06:23
I think Thai are afraid of losing face. The Thai wedding, you have the whole village come to witness the ceremony that's why they don't DV.
Comment 18
Aaron date : 20/07/2009 time : 12:47
date : 20/07/2009 time : 12:47
This is THE most ridiculous article I've ever read. The author just blatantly and arbitrarily interprets the data however he/she sees fit. I don't know how under ANY circumstances you could just assume that ceremonies, certificates or any single factor have a causal relationship with the incidence of domestic violence. I am almost 100% certain (it's hard to be more certain than that of anything) that there are other causal factors that play a much larger role in any domestic violence statistics. If you want to prevent domestic violence, you probably ought to consider effective, responsive legal channels for abused women. Of course, most of the developing world doesn't have those and won't for a long time to come. The logic of this article is akin to tying life expectancy to consumption of red meat without asking study participants about their full eating habits, alcohol consumption and cigarettes.
Comment 19
Kongsak P. date : 20/07/2009 time : 15:48
date : 20/07/2009 time : 15:48
I totally disagree the ceremony will shield sexual, physical and mental abuse. It 's absolutely absurd. The reason to have the ceremony is just to show off.
If women think the ceremony is necessary to publicise they've eventually found a stick to cling to, why don't they have divorce ceremony to publicise I'd enough.
I'd rather save money to provide the best education for my children.
If women think the ceremony is necessary to publicise they've eventually found a stick to cling to, why don't they have divorce ceremony to publicise I'd enough.
I'd rather save money to provide the best education for my children.
Comment 20
In the USA date : 21/07/2009 time : 02:32
date : 21/07/2009 time : 02:32
Korn Earthworm please remember that a large number of people live in the cities, not in the villages. Close to 15% of Thailand's total population lives in or around Bangkok.
Comment 21
Wei date : 21/07/2009 time : 06:40
date : 21/07/2009 time : 06:40
Hallo,
I agree with Brian (comment 16), I was born in china and moved to The Netherlands. The Chinese also like to do the weddings big to show off their wealth and to show face even if they can not afford it. Is it more important to give other people the idea that you are wealthy then actually being wealthy? I never met a couple where “showing face” saved their marriage and help them raising their kids.
I agree with Brian (comment 16), I was born in china and moved to The Netherlands. The Chinese also like to do the weddings big to show off their wealth and to show face even if they can not afford it. Is it more important to give other people the idea that you are wealthy then actually being wealthy? I never met a couple where “showing face” saved their marriage and help them raising their kids.
Comment 22
suchat r. date : 21/07/2009 time : 08:44
date : 21/07/2009 time : 08:44
Parent's consent to marriage is essential but ceremony and party are nonsense.
Comment 23
nomino date : 21/07/2009 time : 11:39
date : 21/07/2009 time : 11:39
I the one who dosen't follow enough the convention but I do respect that.Now aday poeple has his own world that became independent-minded which his own reason for that issue.
Comment 24
John date : 21/07/2009 time : 16:34
I feel this has little to do with ceremony itself, if two people can stand up and make public and very honest declarations of love without the pressure and prompting of others then I'd like to think they will go well together, but ceremony for ceremony's sake may lead down a darker path. The more startling numbers here are the levels of domestic violence and more so that for many they seem to be an acceptable way of life that is even potentially encouraged through the media. TV will block out images of smoking or drinking but when it comes to domestic violence it's prime time tv. As this thread discusses statistics I challenge someone to watch every soap over the next week and count every instance of verbal or physical abuse between partners, very often this is female to male violence but either way it paints an acceptable picture. Domestic abuse begins with a push, a shove or a slap and then deteriorates. This is not just a cultural issue, the world over ignorant, afraid people (and at times entire countries) who feel they have lost control and lack the emotional maturity to deal with the world as a human being resort to threats and violence. Time for a change, just a suggestion start with bringing emotional maturity and mutual respect to the media which a lot of children and families grow up believing in. There is a reasonable chance that I have put the regular tv violence out of context due to lack of fluency but happy for someone to enlighten me if this is the case.
Comment 25
Isaac date : 22/07/2009 time : 03:22
date : 22/07/2009 time : 03:22
i read the article, and as one of my favorite writers for Bangkok post, i found this interpretation of the data to be quite dumb. i am from the usa, yes i am a Farang, and my wife is Thai, she is From Rayong. We are both younger, 22 years old, and we have been married for 4 years. We have No Children, and have lived in both Thailand and Usa. We did not have a wedding, and yet we suffer from no emotional, physicla, or sexual abuse. so how is this data anywhere near correct? by this data we should be divorced due to domestic violence. Please Sanitsuda, do more research on articles like this that you are going to write in the future. if not it looks like you are a bad journalist.
Comment 26
Isaac date : 22/07/2009 time : 03:30
date : 22/07/2009 time : 03:30
also, maybe Thai men AND women, because i do know several Thai women not only in the USa but also in Thailand that are very abusive towards their husbands, were shown less violence on Tv, this might not happen as bad. The thai Lakorn's are filled with Parents beating kids, husbands beating wives, and girls slapping each other because they dont like one another. The thai media thinks this is appropriate, yet they blur out bottles of whiskey or a pack of ciggarettes. does this make sense? which is more harmful? smoking, or locking your daughter in a closet and abusing her mentally and physically and emotionally because you hate her mom? i dont understand, my wife and i have had sevral discussions about this and she feels the same way, and she is thai, so maybe someone can explain that to me.
Comment 27
Korn Earthworm date : 22/07/2009 time : 06:18
date : 22/07/2009 time : 06:18
In the USA "The whole village" I did not mean actual village. I mean people who are invited and not invited. That's mean hundreds of people including VIP. It's Thai idiom.
Comment 28
Yari On date : 22/07/2009 time : 06:18
date : 22/07/2009 time : 06:18
People behave like animals sometimes because it is insane to borrow money and stage a BIG wedding party thereafter,the couples will be eating from the dust bin.Inshort this is ridiculous,it sounds so silly.Marriage is a life time agreement between man and woman and it is not just afew time enjoyment so,any marriage that is based on material egos cannot last.
Comment 29
Lena date : 22/07/2009 time : 11:56
I totally agree to the article.
Of course wedding ceremony and marriage certificate prevents the sick men to b****slap their wives. Super sure. Because the wedding cures them. But only when they sign the marriage document. Only then they discover their true deep feelings towards their love ones and forget about getting beaten themselves or having to see father beat mother and mother did not go away. They stop drinking and gaming and stop wasting money on too big cars, billiard, "caraoke" and the other sweet things. Only you have to get the boyfriend of your girl to do the wedding and the certificate. Its so easy, stupid.
No I thinks, you should warn your precious girl, that a man who as attitude problems, hot temper, looses money on the way home and who had two former families and has no intention to the wedding ceremony is just no marriage material. Sorry. Better not marry the guy, just walk away.
And to anyone, who is domestically hurt. Go away also. There are no f****** excuses for violence. No apologies are valid. It is over. Wedding and paper or not. Wife beaters are low life and should become finger shown every day. By everyone. They are weak persons. Don't talk to them anymore.
Of course wedding ceremony and marriage certificate prevents the sick men to b****slap their wives. Super sure. Because the wedding cures them. But only when they sign the marriage document. Only then they discover their true deep feelings towards their love ones and forget about getting beaten themselves or having to see father beat mother and mother did not go away. They stop drinking and gaming and stop wasting money on too big cars, billiard, "caraoke" and the other sweet things. Only you have to get the boyfriend of your girl to do the wedding and the certificate. Its so easy, stupid.
No I thinks, you should warn your precious girl, that a man who as attitude problems, hot temper, looses money on the way home and who had two former families and has no intention to the wedding ceremony is just no marriage material. Sorry. Better not marry the guy, just walk away.
And to anyone, who is domestically hurt. Go away also. There are no f****** excuses for violence. No apologies are valid. It is over. Wedding and paper or not. Wife beaters are low life and should become finger shown every day. By everyone. They are weak persons. Don't talk to them anymore.
Comment 30
John date : 22/07/2009 time : 16:00
date : 22/07/2009 time : 16:00
You can't draw these conclusions according to these sole statistics. This is the basics of science and mathematics.
You mistake cause and effect.
For example:
Marital violence occurs for 20% of women who had no wedding ceremony, 15% for those who had a ceremony.
Your conclusion: If you have a ceremony, you reduce the risk of violence by 25%
...
My conclusion: Couples with violent relationships tend to like wedding ceremony less.
Both are equally plausible if you consider simply these statistics.
The wedding ceremony is not a magic trick that will solve problems.
Arranging marriages instead of letting love do its work is only masking deeper problems in the Thai family structure. Where appearances are more important what really happens.
The strong social pressure on the couples barely contains the serious disorder of the education of thai boys.
You mistake cause and effect.
For example:
Marital violence occurs for 20% of women who had no wedding ceremony, 15% for those who had a ceremony.
Your conclusion: If you have a ceremony, you reduce the risk of violence by 25%
...
My conclusion: Couples with violent relationships tend to like wedding ceremony less.
Both are equally plausible if you consider simply these statistics.
The wedding ceremony is not a magic trick that will solve problems.
Arranging marriages instead of letting love do its work is only masking deeper problems in the Thai family structure. Where appearances are more important what really happens.
The strong social pressure on the couples barely contains the serious disorder of the education of thai boys.
Comment 31
NoName date : 23/07/2009 time : 00:07
why the thumbnail leading to the article is a white due w/ a thai girl? isn't it supposed to be for Thai couples? I'm sick of this trend already.
Farang fever, give me a break. Thai men are as good. They are not any better.
Comment 32
rebel mind date : 23/07/2009 time : 06:47
date : 23/07/2009 time : 06:47
marriage is a matter of choice..its either good or bad marriage..its a choice that done by two individuals to get through. its not a traditions or choices by parents or by other people..as long the two persons unite is on their legal age to do such a thing..no one could ever stop or interfere what they want to do in their life.they like to get married with the person they like it doesnt matter who she/he is,rich or poor,white or black,farang or thai..parents have the right to give opinion to their children for a better thingking but they cannot really can tell what exactly they will gonna do..its on their choices no matter what if it is right or wrong because we canoot really perceft what exactly on their mind and their personal reasons..
Comment 33
Brian date : 25/07/2009 time : 02:04
date : 25/07/2009 time : 02:04
NoName
I'm sure you'd like to believe that Thai men are as good as Farang. But the truth is that the vast majority of Thai men are irresponsible, abusive philanderers who don't respect their women or children. In a country where there are virtually no family laws, Thai men are allowed to do what they want with impunity, the worst being fathering children and then running away without any repercussions.
In contrast, we Farang men, while far from perfect are nevertheless brought up in cultures where we are taught to respect women as equals, and where women and children are protected under the law.
Unlike in Thailand, a Western man cannot simply run out on his wife and family without a thought, but has to continue to support her and his children, until she remarries and the children become adults. Farang men also don't abandon women who are then forced to come to the city and become prostitutes in order to take care of their families.
The growing trend of Thai women looking for Farang men is due simply to these women wanting a man who is responsible and takes care of them and their families, instead of the alternative of a dishonest, lazy, women-chasing drunk.
As an aside, after more than 12 years of working in this country, I'd also say that Thai men are the worst workers I've ever seen, and I would hire a Thai women any day over a Thai man.
I'm sure you'd like to believe that Thai men are as good as Farang. But the truth is that the vast majority of Thai men are irresponsible, abusive philanderers who don't respect their women or children. In a country where there are virtually no family laws, Thai men are allowed to do what they want with impunity, the worst being fathering children and then running away without any repercussions.
In contrast, we Farang men, while far from perfect are nevertheless brought up in cultures where we are taught to respect women as equals, and where women and children are protected under the law.
Unlike in Thailand, a Western man cannot simply run out on his wife and family without a thought, but has to continue to support her and his children, until she remarries and the children become adults. Farang men also don't abandon women who are then forced to come to the city and become prostitutes in order to take care of their families.
The growing trend of Thai women looking for Farang men is due simply to these women wanting a man who is responsible and takes care of them and their families, instead of the alternative of a dishonest, lazy, women-chasing drunk.
As an aside, after more than 12 years of working in this country, I'd also say that Thai men are the worst workers I've ever seen, and I would hire a Thai women any day over a Thai man.
Comment 34
A guy date : 25/07/2009 time : 03:20
My opinion as a guy is that I do not want any wedding (legal or religious or cultural) with a woman if I have already had a sexual intercourse with her. It is plain and simple. Take that, girls and women!
Comment 35
David Barneby date : 25/07/2009 time : 04:33
date : 25/07/2009 time : 04:33
What springs immediately to my mind is that without a formal wedding , the young man and his family will not be handing over an extortionate sum of MONEY to the bride's family . From my experience , daughters are sold by their parents to the highest bidder .
A man who pays a good price for his wife is perhaps going to take more care of her . A Crucial part of the traditional Thai wedding ceremony is the display of gold and counting the money in front of the guests .
This money is not often a dowry to protect the girl , but a lump sum to be enjoyed and spent by the parents .
The Thai marriage means nothing , is just a permission to sleep together ; in many instances it lasts a very short time , before they separate , go their own ways and find new partners .
Mothers will be happy to extort another substantial sum of money from the next man .
A man who pays a good price for his wife is perhaps going to take more care of her . A Crucial part of the traditional Thai wedding ceremony is the display of gold and counting the money in front of the guests .
This money is not often a dowry to protect the girl , but a lump sum to be enjoyed and spent by the parents .
The Thai marriage means nothing , is just a permission to sleep together ; in many instances it lasts a very short time , before they separate , go their own ways and find new partners .
Mothers will be happy to extort another substantial sum of money from the next man .
Comment 36
Brian date : 25/07/2009 time : 13:51
date : 25/07/2009 time : 13:51
David Barneby
It is true that the parents of poor upcountry girls will certainly keep the windfall of the sin sord, and will have no compunction to "sell" her again, if the opportunity presents itself. It's seen by many poor Thais as an income generator.
But, in my experience of middle class and upper class weddings, the sin sord is usually returned to the groom, and is therefore merely symbolic. I'm talking about marriages where the sin sord is at least 500,000 Baht and usually 1,000,000 or more, with gold anywhere from 5 baht (weight) up to 15 or even 20 baht. A good friend of mine had to pay 1,000,000 Baht (999,999 actually as it was lucky), but only had 990,000. I loaned him the rest. The gold was family gold loaned by the girl's grandmother. All was dutifully displayed for the gathered guests at the engagement party and then promptly returned to my friend, who then returned my 99,000. I've attended a number of weddings of this type and the money was always returned.
In better Thai families, sin sord is not seen as a way to gouge the groom, but as a long-standing, if somewhat demeaning symbol of Thai traditional marriage.
I still don't agree with any sort of dowry. But, at least if you marry a girl from a good family, your chances are better of not being treated like an ATM machine.
It is true that the parents of poor upcountry girls will certainly keep the windfall of the sin sord, and will have no compunction to "sell" her again, if the opportunity presents itself. It's seen by many poor Thais as an income generator.
But, in my experience of middle class and upper class weddings, the sin sord is usually returned to the groom, and is therefore merely symbolic. I'm talking about marriages where the sin sord is at least 500,000 Baht and usually 1,000,000 or more, with gold anywhere from 5 baht (weight) up to 15 or even 20 baht. A good friend of mine had to pay 1,000,000 Baht (999,999 actually as it was lucky), but only had 990,000. I loaned him the rest. The gold was family gold loaned by the girl's grandmother. All was dutifully displayed for the gathered guests at the engagement party and then promptly returned to my friend, who then returned my 99,000. I've attended a number of weddings of this type and the money was always returned.
In better Thai families, sin sord is not seen as a way to gouge the groom, but as a long-standing, if somewhat demeaning symbol of Thai traditional marriage.
I still don't agree with any sort of dowry. But, at least if you marry a girl from a good family, your chances are better of not being treated like an ATM machine.
Comment 37
David Barneby date : 26/07/2009 time : 06:36
date : 26/07/2009 time : 06:36
Brian
Thank you for your reply to my comment . You judge correctly , I am a Falang living in Isaan . Last year my stepdaughter was married ; I too had to draw a considerable sum , to make up the sum required . The gold belonged to the bridegroom and our daughter . A little money was returned to the groom . The major part of the money has been spent by my Thai wife on building a house . The young couple will in a few years time , have our very comfortable home , with bedrooms and bathrooms en-suite . We will move to the new house , where we have made our own suite . Eventually my stepson will have that house , overlooking the family's paddy fields .
My stepson , now 24 , was married at 18 ; his mother heavily indebted herself to raise the reqired money . Had I then been in Thailand and married to her , I would have stopped that marriage , as they were both too young , it lasted 18 months . I did not permit the second marriage for the same reason . I had paid All the debts from the first wedding . The young man is married a third time at 24 , has a baby by the second girl . This time my wife told the girl exactly what sort of a young man her son is and the girls parents . She told them that any money for marriage would be provided only by her son . This young man is , tall , handsome , charming and loveable ; he was eventually kicked out by the second girl after one of his infrequent drinking binges . I thought it was unfair ; he had just nursed his wife , then baby daughter , then mother-in-law through chickenpox .
My wife and I were married without saying a word to anyone at the townhall of a neighbouring town . After two hours we came home, on my wife's motorcycle, with two certificases . We didn't tell anyone for two days . We are immensely happy and NO DV .
Thank you for your reply to my comment . You judge correctly , I am a Falang living in Isaan . Last year my stepdaughter was married ; I too had to draw a considerable sum , to make up the sum required . The gold belonged to the bridegroom and our daughter . A little money was returned to the groom . The major part of the money has been spent by my Thai wife on building a house . The young couple will in a few years time , have our very comfortable home , with bedrooms and bathrooms en-suite . We will move to the new house , where we have made our own suite . Eventually my stepson will have that house , overlooking the family's paddy fields .
My stepson , now 24 , was married at 18 ; his mother heavily indebted herself to raise the reqired money . Had I then been in Thailand and married to her , I would have stopped that marriage , as they were both too young , it lasted 18 months . I did not permit the second marriage for the same reason . I had paid All the debts from the first wedding . The young man is married a third time at 24 , has a baby by the second girl . This time my wife told the girl exactly what sort of a young man her son is and the girls parents . She told them that any money for marriage would be provided only by her son . This young man is , tall , handsome , charming and loveable ; he was eventually kicked out by the second girl after one of his infrequent drinking binges . I thought it was unfair ; he had just nursed his wife , then baby daughter , then mother-in-law through chickenpox .
My wife and I were married without saying a word to anyone at the townhall of a neighbouring town . After two hours we came home, on my wife's motorcycle, with two certificases . We didn't tell anyone for two days . We are immensely happy and NO DV .
Comment 38
Rüdiger date : 26/07/2009 time : 09:12
date : 26/07/2009 time : 09:12
Look - almost 26 years ago we,ve celebrated a Thai wedding in my Wife,s home.The whole village was present and wittnessed of course.`Since then we,ve raised 5 children and still stick together.That,s something - is it ?
Comment 39
Jack date : 27/07/2009 time : 13:47
date : 27/07/2009 time : 13:47
I agree that the marrage ceremony itself has nothing to do with DV, but I'm curious, why did some foreingers have to pay that much for the wedding or engaging money? If you would say " no I can't pay that much", then they will understand you.
Comment 40
Kris date : 28/07/2009 time : 04:09
date : 28/07/2009 time : 04:09
This article is moralising. It's old style journalism and it's clinging on to old traditions without using reason.
The university report doesn't take into account external factors like poverty and the test group is too small, giving a huge error margin.
I had a Thai wedding ceremony and it was one of the worst days of my life. I experienced the whole thing as one big show. It was nothing more than a way to show to others how wealthy you really are and how high you are on the social ladder. Of course the sin-sod was also fake.
I think wedding ceremonies are good, but they should be about love only and they don't need to be expensive. So, I support all Thai daughters that want to keep things simple.
Poverty can create relational problems. But if there's no poverty in the family I think it really doesn't matter if you had a ceremony or not.
The university report doesn't take into account external factors like poverty and the test group is too small, giving a huge error margin.
I had a Thai wedding ceremony and it was one of the worst days of my life. I experienced the whole thing as one big show. It was nothing more than a way to show to others how wealthy you really are and how high you are on the social ladder. Of course the sin-sod was also fake.
I think wedding ceremonies are good, but they should be about love only and they don't need to be expensive. So, I support all Thai daughters that want to keep things simple.
Poverty can create relational problems. But if there's no poverty in the family I think it really doesn't matter if you had a ceremony or not.
Comment 41
Brian date : 28/07/2009 time : 04:26
date : 28/07/2009 time : 04:26
Jack
re: Sin Sord (dowry)
The marriages to which I referred with high dowries were in Bangkok to Thai-Chinese women, and that is why the sin sord was so high. (Believe it or not, there are Farang who marry women other than poor farm-girls,and/or ex-bargirls from Isaan)
The amount of sin sord is based on a variety of factors, but is largely based on two: the status (class) of the family and the marriageability of the girl. It may seem as if the girl is being placed on the market, as is the case in India, for example. But,it's not that simple. Sin sord comes from a time when the girl was a virgin, stayed at home until marriage and the man was expected to show his ability to take care of and provide for her, and also compensate the family for the loss of a child. This was a practical consideration in the past. Now,of course it is merely symbolic, or should be. The amounts expected are fairly consistent,almost to the point that one could put together a chart based on class of the family, and desirability of the girl (looks, education etc.).
However, upcountry it's seen by poor families as a way to get money. Farang are routinely 'charged' twice as much as a Thai man in such situations. For example, the standard sin sord for a poor Isaan farmgirl, with Mor 3 (grade 10), in her early 20s and never married would be about 50-60,000 Baht and 1-2 Baht of gold. A Farang marrying the same girl would likely pay 125-150,000 and 5 Baht of gold, which is far too much. The family would also keep all of it. Personally, I wouldn't go near such a girl, or her family with a 10 foot poll.
My GF, who is also from Isaan, but from a good middle-class family(father retired school principal, brothers police officers in Bangkok-one on Royal escort) would normally cost me,when we marry about 500-750,000 Baht and 5 baht of gold. I have agreed to this for show. But, her family aren't after my money and have said to me because I'm Farang (not my culture) and I have been taking care of their daughter for 3 years,(including paying for her school), that they don't want sin sord.
When you're a Farang marrying a Thai, you have to be careful because you likely don't really understand the culture well, especially how you are actually perceived and could make a big mistake.
I've been here a long time and I teach Thai culture at university. The one thing I've learned is that you really have to choose carefully who you're going to marry here, especially because of cultural differences. Too many times,Farang meet a girlquickly,go upcountry and spend only a bit of time in her village,don't speak the language or understand what's going on and end up not only marrying her, but her whole family with the huge cost that involves.
DV is almost guaranteed.
re: Sin Sord (dowry)
The marriages to which I referred with high dowries were in Bangkok to Thai-Chinese women, and that is why the sin sord was so high. (Believe it or not, there are Farang who marry women other than poor farm-girls,and/or ex-bargirls from Isaan)
The amount of sin sord is based on a variety of factors, but is largely based on two: the status (class) of the family and the marriageability of the girl. It may seem as if the girl is being placed on the market, as is the case in India, for example. But,it's not that simple. Sin sord comes from a time when the girl was a virgin, stayed at home until marriage and the man was expected to show his ability to take care of and provide for her, and also compensate the family for the loss of a child. This was a practical consideration in the past. Now,of course it is merely symbolic, or should be. The amounts expected are fairly consistent,almost to the point that one could put together a chart based on class of the family, and desirability of the girl (looks, education etc.).
However, upcountry it's seen by poor families as a way to get money. Farang are routinely 'charged' twice as much as a Thai man in such situations. For example, the standard sin sord for a poor Isaan farmgirl, with Mor 3 (grade 10), in her early 20s and never married would be about 50-60,000 Baht and 1-2 Baht of gold. A Farang marrying the same girl would likely pay 125-150,000 and 5 Baht of gold, which is far too much. The family would also keep all of it. Personally, I wouldn't go near such a girl, or her family with a 10 foot poll.
My GF, who is also from Isaan, but from a good middle-class family(father retired school principal, brothers police officers in Bangkok-one on Royal escort) would normally cost me,when we marry about 500-750,000 Baht and 5 baht of gold. I have agreed to this for show. But, her family aren't after my money and have said to me because I'm Farang (not my culture) and I have been taking care of their daughter for 3 years,(including paying for her school), that they don't want sin sord.
When you're a Farang marrying a Thai, you have to be careful because you likely don't really understand the culture well, especially how you are actually perceived and could make a big mistake.
I've been here a long time and I teach Thai culture at university. The one thing I've learned is that you really have to choose carefully who you're going to marry here, especially because of cultural differences. Too many times,Farang meet a girlquickly,go upcountry and spend only a bit of time in her village,don't speak the language or understand what's going on and end up not only marrying her, but her whole family with the huge cost that involves.
DV is almost guaranteed.
Comment 42
Jack date : 28/07/2009 time : 09:10
date : 28/07/2009 time : 09:10
Brian, thank you for the very detailed explanation on Thai Sin Sord. But your advice came a little too late, because I have married for 15 years.:)
In my country, the dowry is paid but the bride's family pays back by bearing the purchasement of basic things neccessary for the couple's new life. And the cost should be more than the gift money.(So actually they share the burden almost eaqually.) It's very delicate process to determine how much gift money will be suitably reflecting the familys' social statuses. Maybe the Thai way (or Chinese Thai way?) is more simple and good, that just they show it in the wedding and returns it later.
In my country, the dowry is paid but the bride's family pays back by bearing the purchasement of basic things neccessary for the couple's new life. And the cost should be more than the gift money.(So actually they share the burden almost eaqually.) It's very delicate process to determine how much gift money will be suitably reflecting the familys' social statuses. Maybe the Thai way (or Chinese Thai way?) is more simple and good, that just they show it in the wedding and returns it later.
Comment 43
baadshah date : 29/07/2009 time : 08:10
date : 29/07/2009 time : 08:10
everthing is whether u are smart or fool..????????????????????????????????????//
Comment 44
Emma Riley date : 29/07/2009 time : 15:03
date : 29/07/2009 time : 15:03
I enjoyed this article.
I'm not sure that, as one such "independent minded daughter" these statistics would have changed my mind much either way about having a marriage ceremony though. Even if the odds were 80% against success, I'd probably assume that I'd be with the lucky 20%, wouldn't you?
Those statistics may show interesting patterns, but the real issue he is surely whether she's found the right kind of guy, with the right kind of values, who knows apporpriate ways to deal with negative feelings, who will treat her with respect through thick and thin?
The again, I suppose some could argue that one way to test that is to put a couple and their families through the stress and expense of planning a traditional wedding ;-)
I'm not sure that, as one such "independent minded daughter" these statistics would have changed my mind much either way about having a marriage ceremony though. Even if the odds were 80% against success, I'd probably assume that I'd be with the lucky 20%, wouldn't you?
Those statistics may show interesting patterns, but the real issue he is surely whether she's found the right kind of guy, with the right kind of values, who knows apporpriate ways to deal with negative feelings, who will treat her with respect through thick and thin?
The again, I suppose some could argue that one way to test that is to put a couple and their families through the stress and expense of planning a traditional wedding ;-)
Comment 45
chocolate date : 01/08/2009 time : 18:28
date : 01/08/2009 time : 18:28
Great artical,Marriage is not about ceremony,Is all about understanding and love.lover sometimes have problems and settle it privately,Ceremony can break marriage.Wedding day suppose to be best day and happy day for a man.But most wedding day always be worst and bad day for some men due to thai culture be you bangkok girl or chinese-thai.Even those Issan girls always make good wife more than them.Dowry is necdcessary to be paid but not as much.in my country dowry is $50 only must.But wedding or ceremony is up to you.what matter is be happy with ur wife and enjoy ur wedding .Girl cant be for sell by God sake.If you sell your daughter to a man ,he will treat the girl as he wants bcz he brought her as slave.Thais ppl should change thier old custom.
No body will be happy to start new life with debt.eveb if your daughter is gold or silver.
So this artical is a shame and baseless.How many thai men pays all this sin sod of a thing.Good luck for foreigners who want to marry them.
Issue about DV or family problems is from parents.what ever you did is how your kids will be.most girls cause Dv or man to slap or fighting.If you are good girl and have respect to your husband ,that is how your husband will rspect you too and stop treat your husband like fool or ATM.
thx for this artical plz go back to your board
No body will be happy to start new life with debt.eveb if your daughter is gold or silver.
So this artical is a shame and baseless.How many thai men pays all this sin sod of a thing.Good luck for foreigners who want to marry them.
Issue about DV or family problems is from parents.what ever you did is how your kids will be.most girls cause Dv or man to slap or fighting.If you are good girl and have respect to your husband ,that is how your husband will rspect you too and stop treat your husband like fool or ATM.
thx for this artical plz go back to your board
Comment 46
chocolate date : 01/08/2009 time : 18:31
date : 01/08/2009 time : 18:31
when rich ppl do Dv than poor.despite all the wedding and ceremony at 5 star hotel and expensive car for wedding
Comment 47
Desmond Malone date : 02/08/2009 time : 14:35
date : 02/08/2009 time : 14:35
Re. comment 32(Brian)
25/07/2009.
So true everything Brian says
DM.
25/07/2009.
So true everything Brian says
DM.
Comment 48
WMB date : 03/08/2009 time : 08:11
date : 03/08/2009 time : 08:11
I’ve been married for over five years and living in Thailand. This article says that couples get married for stability and security. From my experience, what the article doesn’t mention, there is more stability and security unless one of you is a western foreigner, if you are Chinese, you have no problems. The government is putting more pressure on biracial couples now then any time since we’ve been married. Maybe without the certificate the government will just push you a bit too much and you can give them back their citizen and you can move on without any penalties.
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