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Tuesday, March 23, 2010
No peace and little justice
When will this madness be over? How is this going to end? Why do we have to go through this again and again without any end in sight?
Are you asking these questions while watching the March of the Red Shirts, or when human blood was being splattered as a grim warning against what is to come?
The answers from the red shirts are loud and clear: No justice, no peace. No equal opportunities, no peace.
Who in his right mind can refute the goals of justice and equality? But all political movements claim they are pursuing justice and equality, don't they? That surely includes their arch rival the yellow shirts, who held the country hostage for months.
It must be noted, however, that these high-minded goals are often used to legitimise violence by leaders from all political shades and colours.
Red, yellow, military green or Newin blue - their supporters like to say that since the sources of discontent for their political camps are real, it follows that whatever means their movement leaders propose, are the solutions.
Thaksin's policy corruption and cronyism is real, so the Yellow Shirts believe that getting rid of Thaksin could save the country and the monarchy. The generals made it happen. But look at the current mess we are in - despite and since the coup.
Interestingly, cronyism and corruption are also the sources of discontent for the red shirts. But for them, Thaksin is small fry. The big fish is the Establishment which controls the network of power and connections to maintain the structural injustice. Since Thaksin dares to confront the Establishment, he must be brought back to continue "the change" momentum to dismantle the perceived root cause of social injustice. Hence the demand for a House dissolution to pave the way for Thaksin Shinawatra's return.
No House dissolution, no peace, they roared. But can Thaksin's return bring peace? Can PM Abhisit's aim to complete his four-year-term bring justice? Can the Red power - with or without Thaksin - make Thailand more just? And can the change-resistant status-quo do any better?
During the blood splattter hype, the only news that could compete with their protest was the royal cremation ceremony of Pol Col Sompien Eksomya, who was killed in a bomb attack in the restive South, after his superiors ignored his transfer appeal that came after decades of his service in the face of serious danger.
The outcry did not come only from the public against the positions-for-sale system in the police force. It also came from junior policemen who, like the late Pol Col Sompien, are treated as a different class from their bosses, who are graduates from the police academy.
When there was an attempt to reform the police some years back, junior policemen voiced support for a decentralised workforce with better welfare and a transparent system of promotion. The attempt failed because of fierce resistance from police bosses.
No matter who wins this crazy Thai politics of colours, justice is a pipe dream when the police force remains decadently corrupt.
Pol Col Sompien gave his life to bring normalcy to the restive South. He was not the first, nor will he be the last. But peace remains unreachable when the police and military are a big part of the injustice problem. So is the mainstream society, which has allowed ultra-nationalism to blind itself to the sufferings of the southern Malay Muslims.
The change of guard at the top will not bring peace or justice, no matter how loud you shout the words and how many people you bring on the streets.
So what will, then? Police reform? Land and tax reform? Political decentralisation? Community rights to manage natural resources? Freedom of expression? Respect for cultural diversity and human rights? Regard for the poor? Equitable allocation of resources? A more responsive judiciary? Political tolerance? More responsible media? The military's return to the barracks?
Instead of letting the elite from different political and ideological camps define justice and peace for their own good, we must set our own agenda. If not, these senseless political feuds without any meaningful change will haunt us endlessly.
Read comment
Comment 2
martin lewis 
date : 23/03/2010 time : 15:46
date : 23/03/2010 time : 15:46
What an excellent article,until the poor,especially of the north and north east are treated as equals im afraid Thailand will not rest,the elite must realise by now that the world has moved on and no longer can you retain a feudal society,i have travelled all over thailand for the past 20 years and i must say that wherever ive been [in poor villages] ive been treated with nothing but kindness,the poor will give their last bowl of rice,also the poor are now becoming more wise and educated they must now be given the opportunity to share the wealth of the country,please wake up Leaders before your country moves into anarchy..
Comment 3
Victor date : 24/03/2010 time : 03:02
date : 24/03/2010 time : 03:02
The situation here is like being in between a rock and a hard place for the middle class and may eventually end up not unlike the N and S Koreas, or worse, if we put the southern insurgency into the equation.
But all this is not that surprising since Thailand's social incompatability has always been there as far back as one cares to remember.
We have up there at the top 1 or 2 % priviledged class, like the apex of the pyramid, trying to keep their greedy fingers in the cookie jar at all cost by means of pretending to help the lowest 80% of the population at the base of the pyramid...the means that come directly from the pocket of tax-paying middle class.
With such a set up, the priviledged few will stand to lose the most if the majority uneducated (and mainly not very bright) poor rise up due to whaever reason, real or imaginary, because, when you are poor, there is no room for logic and all that jazz.
So, this sorry situation that we are all in must somehow end in either black or white.
Not red not yellow or any other shade.
But all this is not that surprising since Thailand's social incompatability has always been there as far back as one cares to remember.
We have up there at the top 1 or 2 % priviledged class, like the apex of the pyramid, trying to keep their greedy fingers in the cookie jar at all cost by means of pretending to help the lowest 80% of the population at the base of the pyramid...the means that come directly from the pocket of tax-paying middle class.
With such a set up, the priviledged few will stand to lose the most if the majority uneducated (and mainly not very bright) poor rise up due to whaever reason, real or imaginary, because, when you are poor, there is no room for logic and all that jazz.
So, this sorry situation that we are all in must somehow end in either black or white.
Not red not yellow or any other shade.
Comment 4
Darika Watchalottaporn date : 24/03/2010 time : 04:15
date : 24/03/2010 time : 04:15
Every level of Thai government is corrupt and there are things everyone can do to bring about change from the bottom up. For example, refuse to pay 200 baht when your car is stopped by police for no reason at all. All of those bribes are passed up to superior officers. It is such a simple thing, yet one of the few small acts of defiance that almost everyone can do to slowly bring an end to institutionalized dishonesty. Anyone who pays bribes has no right to complain about brivery and how we are all victims of the rich and powerful.
Comment 5
Urs date : 24/03/2010 time : 04:55
date : 24/03/2010 time : 04:55
A well written comment indeed. Due to Thaksin Shinawatra Thailand has reached a crossroad. His gimmicks to help the poor and excesses to get richer made it happen. Good work Khun Thaksin, but that was most probably not his intention. Out of power he now is using again the poor to achieve his goals, not theirs, I mean what they proclaim, in particular justice, equality and democracy. They do not know that they are used. For them Thaksin is a hero.
To achieve the goals of the rural poor in Isarn and the North, there only is one way, but certainly not force. What the red shirts asked for, respectively are asked to ask for, is justified, but it is not so easy to get. There always will be a few with money and power, who will control the masses. That's all over the world the same and Thailand is no exception.
What can be done for the rural poor or lets say the population upcountry are much better school. A good education is the background to understand politics and economics better, in order to take educated decisions, in particular at election time. In the medium to long term the education approach will bear better results then force and threats. With other words, the Democrat party now has the opportunity to write a new chapter in Thai history, the one, about the change of the education system in favor of the rural masses, e.g. to empower them to be on equal footing with their urban sisters and brothers.
To achieve the goals of the rural poor in Isarn and the North, there only is one way, but certainly not force. What the red shirts asked for, respectively are asked to ask for, is justified, but it is not so easy to get. There always will be a few with money and power, who will control the masses. That's all over the world the same and Thailand is no exception.
What can be done for the rural poor or lets say the population upcountry are much better school. A good education is the background to understand politics and economics better, in order to take educated decisions, in particular at election time. In the medium to long term the education approach will bear better results then force and threats. With other words, the Democrat party now has the opportunity to write a new chapter in Thai history, the one, about the change of the education system in favor of the rural masses, e.g. to empower them to be on equal footing with their urban sisters and brothers.
Comment 6
Urs date : 24/03/2010 time : 04:58
date : 24/03/2010 time : 04:58
A well written comment indeed. Due to Thaksin Shinawatra Thailand has reached a crossroad. His gimmicks to help the poor and excesses to get richer made it happen. Good work Khun Thaksin, but that was most probably not his intention. Out of power he now is using again the poor to achieve his goals, not theirs, I mean what they proclaim, in particular justice, equality and democracy. They do not know that they are used. For them Thaksin is a hero.
To achieve the goals of the rural poor in Isarn and the North, there only is one way, but certainly not force. What the red shirts asked for, respectively are asked to ask for, is justified, but it is not so easy to get. There always will be a few with money and power, who will control the masses. That's all over the world the same and Thailand is no exception.
What can be done for the rural poor or lets say the population upcountry are much better school. A good education is the background to understand politics and economics better, in order to take educated decisions, in particular at election time. In the medium to long term the education approach will bear better results then force and threats. With other words, the Democrat party now has the opportunity to write a new chapter in Thai history, the one, about the change of the education system in favor of the rural masses, e.g. to empower them to be on equal footing with their urban sisters and brothers.
To achieve the goals of the rural poor in Isarn and the North, there only is one way, but certainly not force. What the red shirts asked for, respectively are asked to ask for, is justified, but it is not so easy to get. There always will be a few with money and power, who will control the masses. That's all over the world the same and Thailand is no exception.
What can be done for the rural poor or lets say the population upcountry are much better school. A good education is the background to understand politics and economics better, in order to take educated decisions, in particular at election time. In the medium to long term the education approach will bear better results then force and threats. With other words, the Democrat party now has the opportunity to write a new chapter in Thai history, the one, about the change of the education system in favor of the rural masses, e.g. to empower them to be on equal footing with their urban sisters and brothers.
Comment 7
Victor date : 24/03/2010 time : 08:30
date : 24/03/2010 time : 08:30
For most everywhere else being poor is a great struggle. But Thailand is different because it means that:-
1. You don't have to pay tax no matter how much you earn or what you do.
2. You can settle down ANYWHERE, even on the public land, rent free too. And in the event that you have to move, you can demand a compensation.
3. You can operate a motorbike or tricycle at all hours EVERYWHERE, even against the traffic, with no lighting whatsoever, without license plate, of course.
4. You will get free shirts in two major colours, and get to go places for free, with some pocket money to spend even though the foods are free.
5. And when you go back home in the rural area you sure will get plenty of helps from the government because of the drought and the flooding (all in the same place but at different time) because, being raised to behave like children, you are too stupid to help yourself.
And lives will go on......
1. You don't have to pay tax no matter how much you earn or what you do.
2. You can settle down ANYWHERE, even on the public land, rent free too. And in the event that you have to move, you can demand a compensation.
3. You can operate a motorbike or tricycle at all hours EVERYWHERE, even against the traffic, with no lighting whatsoever, without license plate, of course.
4. You will get free shirts in two major colours, and get to go places for free, with some pocket money to spend even though the foods are free.
5. And when you go back home in the rural area you sure will get plenty of helps from the government because of the drought and the flooding (all in the same place but at different time) because, being raised to behave like children, you are too stupid to help yourself.
And lives will go on......
Comment 8
Soonthorn Ungtrakul date : 24/03/2010 time : 16:32
date : 24/03/2010 time : 16:32
I'm completely in agreement with you, Khun Sanitsuda. But my cardiologist told me not to get involved or be opinionated, just go home for a visit only. I hope the protest is over before Songkran.
"No justice, no peace." So what is justice? Justice is based on what is right and wrong? So does anybody know what is right and what is wrong any more? I guess it depends on who you ask.
"When will this madness be over?" Well, the Red Shirts will only go home when Thaksin gets what he wants, a pardon to allow him to run, win, and be Thai PM (again) in the next election.
Now, ask the Yellow, Green and Blue Shirts, whether they can live with that possibility.
The return of Thaksin will only mean the Red Shirts go home and the Yellow Shirts return to the streets doing exactly the same thing, except that those M-79 rounds will be shot right at them.
As a result, I believe the whole thing will not be over as long as Thaksin lives.
"When will this madness be over?" Well, the Red Shirts will only go home when Thaksin gets what he wants, a pardon to allow him to run, win, and be Thai PM (again) in the next election.
Now, ask the Yellow, Green and Blue Shirts, whether they can live with that possibility.
The return of Thaksin will only mean the Red Shirts go home and the Yellow Shirts return to the streets doing exactly the same thing, except that those M-79 rounds will be shot right at them.
As a result, I believe the whole thing will not be over as long as Thaksin lives.
Comment 11
Victor date : 25/03/2010 time : 01:42
date : 25/03/2010 time : 01:42
Now, let's take a look at the Amataya...the priviledged class. Without them the word Double Standard would be meaningless.
To get to know them you must look up from below, the further the better. So, if you are at the bottom rung of the pyramid the Amataya will look much larger than what the middle class will see. Strange but true!
They are those who run EVERYTHING in this country because without their consent nothing will move; and they last and last, especially the chosen few, because they can even stay in a government mansion, with full service, 20 years after their retirement from active duty. Some even pass down their power to the offsprings after their demise.
It is generally believed that all the ministers and heads of governmant agencies are in this class but this is no longer true, especially after Thai government began its CEO style operation by Thaksin. And this was the beginning of the mess we are in today.
In the old days a government cabinet is guaranteed at least a 4-yr term so there was no hurry for anyone, from the PM down to the ministers, the Sr permanent officials, the middle ranking, to the very junior officials in all of the agencies and sub agencies around the country, to be in a hurry because time was on their side to reap the benefit 'without going against the tide'. They knew when and how much 'tea money' they will get.....
But, under the CEO mode of operation, everything and everyone move at the speed of light because nothing is certain anymore. And it gets to the point that all 'tea money' must be obtained up front...and at a much higher percentage than what it was in the old days. This, of course, affected the middle class more than they can bear.
And the mud that stuck to the tail of a pig gets bigger and biger........
To get to know them you must look up from below, the further the better. So, if you are at the bottom rung of the pyramid the Amataya will look much larger than what the middle class will see. Strange but true!
They are those who run EVERYTHING in this country because without their consent nothing will move; and they last and last, especially the chosen few, because they can even stay in a government mansion, with full service, 20 years after their retirement from active duty. Some even pass down their power to the offsprings after their demise.
It is generally believed that all the ministers and heads of governmant agencies are in this class but this is no longer true, especially after Thai government began its CEO style operation by Thaksin. And this was the beginning of the mess we are in today.
In the old days a government cabinet is guaranteed at least a 4-yr term so there was no hurry for anyone, from the PM down to the ministers, the Sr permanent officials, the middle ranking, to the very junior officials in all of the agencies and sub agencies around the country, to be in a hurry because time was on their side to reap the benefit 'without going against the tide'. They knew when and how much 'tea money' they will get.....
But, under the CEO mode of operation, everything and everyone move at the speed of light because nothing is certain anymore. And it gets to the point that all 'tea money' must be obtained up front...and at a much higher percentage than what it was in the old days. This, of course, affected the middle class more than they can bear.
And the mud that stuck to the tail of a pig gets bigger and biger........
Comment 12
roby date : 25/03/2010 time : 02:34
date : 25/03/2010 time : 02:34
I think the red shirts have an objective to restore the previous constitution and are not protesting for shedding blood. So your last sentence is a bit hi-so completely ignoring the objectives of the red shirt as though they are doing all this for show and not for a just purpose. Am I wrong to interpret your article this way? You said: Instead of letting the elite from different political and ideological camps define justice and peace for their own good, we must set our own agenda. Please Define "our". The article is just a bunch of psychobabble. Incoherent and disappointing. What exactly is your point? Are you speaking for the current people in power? I can only assume this is what you mean.
Comment 13
Jay date : 25/03/2010 time : 04:00
date : 25/03/2010 time : 04:00
Right now this is a political fight, not a fight over either policy or justice. If the UDD wants to be taken seriously in their current protest, they should specify what the government should do to help those who are disadvantaged: access to better schools, better healthcare, more economic opportunities. The essence of a democracy is that the various political groups, including the opposition, propose solutions to problemsm and the people decide who has it right. When the opposition proposes those policies, the government then either adopts them - accepting that the opposition has the best policies - or reject them, running the risk that the public disagrees.
Today it is all political games in Thailand. At some point, UDD will get smarter, and start to say publicly what changes in policy will help those who need it. Only then will the government truly be under pressure. Of course, the government can anticipate that strategy, and make progressive proposals of their own. That is democracy.
When it works properly, the people win. The people need to insist that it works as intended, and ignore the games in the meantime.
Today it is all political games in Thailand. At some point, UDD will get smarter, and start to say publicly what changes in policy will help those who need it. Only then will the government truly be under pressure. Of course, the government can anticipate that strategy, and make progressive proposals of their own. That is democracy.
When it works properly, the people win. The people need to insist that it works as intended, and ignore the games in the meantime.
Comment 14
nick makmai date : 25/03/2010 time : 04:56
date : 25/03/2010 time : 04:56
Khun Thaksin was a very bright man and had chances to turn this country to whichever direction he wanted except that he corrupted big time himself and apparently lied a lot so his role is definitely ended with no credibility or integrity left. Education should be the only tool to add wisdom to the people, however the education in school system is tainted as most poor grade candidates who have no better choice choose teaching for their careers. The most popular media are also indirectly corrupted protecting their business toxicating vast population with most bad news on the first page with vivid crime pictures everyday. Illegal acts can be seen on the road every where any time. There are good examples of people and acts but hardly promoted to the public. If Thailand is not a buddhist country by this time there probably be a lot of killings just like you see in many parts of the world as buddhism never caused any war in the history of mankind. Rule of law has the top priority and in my view Khun Apisith is one of the best men for the premier position. The longer he stays the better Thailand will be as he has the right chemistry and energy to drive the country into the right direction. The question is how to keep him there long enough. I have been to 24 countries in the world and lived abroad for years, holistically Thailand still has a lot of charms to offer and brag about. I fully committed to be the best citizen I can in order that society and country can be better. One has no right to complain if one dose not behave and contribute.
Comment 15
Sambo date : 25/03/2010 time : 07:09
date : 25/03/2010 time : 07:09
Once again, a very honest article by Ms. Sanitsuda Ekachai. Thank you. The other writers from the Bangkok Post are mostly from out of space and out of touch from reality.
Comment 16
John date : 25/03/2010 time : 09:04
date : 25/03/2010 time : 09:04
The article is well written and defines the situation and its problems correctly. In any class struggle and this is now what the situation is there can be no winner, likewise no loser. The factions involved must see that discussion and compromise must happen or Thailand could be thrown in to chaos and total disarray and all Thai society will lose out of that.
It is better to have some of the cake than none and all factions have to realise this. Fanatics will never agree to compromise, but the majority who are normal, decent and law abiding Thai citizens want a better fairer society as a legacy for their children to inherit. Only the Red and Yellow shirts being together for the good of all Thai's by compromise can give them that and maybe making the colour of the two of them together - namely orange.
It is better to have some of the cake than none and all factions have to realise this. Fanatics will never agree to compromise, but the majority who are normal, decent and law abiding Thai citizens want a better fairer society as a legacy for their children to inherit. Only the Red and Yellow shirts being together for the good of all Thai's by compromise can give them that and maybe making the colour of the two of them together - namely orange.
Comment 17
sunny date : 25/03/2010 time : 11:05
date : 25/03/2010 time : 11:05
To answer comment 12
what you know is so very little by looking only to the frontpage. The hidden agendas are inside and you can not summarize the whole book by just looking at the frontpage only.
You have summarized that Red-shirted are protest to restore the 1997 Constitution, but if you have ever look into the real situation act by redleaders you would not say this. Are you one of them?
what you know is so very little by looking only to the frontpage. The hidden agendas are inside and you can not summarize the whole book by just looking at the frontpage only.
You have summarized that Red-shirted are protest to restore the 1997 Constitution, but if you have ever look into the real situation act by redleaders you would not say this. Are you one of them?
Comment 18
Loong date : 25/03/2010 time : 19:07
date : 25/03/2010 time : 19:07
Reply to #12 The red objective is to get rid of current administration nothing more. The current PM is the best man for the top post.
Dear Nick Makmai #14:
"Buddism never caused any war in the history of mindkind." Really, are you sure? Have you been to the old ruin of Krung See Ayudhya, the old capital of Thailand? Do you know who destroyed it?
Our history in the last 400 years is full of wars and bloodshed with Burma and occasionally, with Cambodia. There were at least 2 major bloody wars between Thailand and Burma. The blood in the head of at least one Cambodian king was used to wash the feet of our King Nar Reh Suan, the Great, following his victory over Cambodia. Both Siam, Burma, and Cambodia were and still are Buddhists to this day.
I just want to bring you up to date concerning our long and rich history.
"Buddism never caused any war in the history of mindkind." Really, are you sure? Have you been to the old ruin of Krung See Ayudhya, the old capital of Thailand? Do you know who destroyed it?
Our history in the last 400 years is full of wars and bloodshed with Burma and occasionally, with Cambodia. There were at least 2 major bloody wars between Thailand and Burma. The blood in the head of at least one Cambodian king was used to wash the feet of our King Nar Reh Suan, the Great, following his victory over Cambodia. Both Siam, Burma, and Cambodia were and still are Buddhists to this day.
I just want to bring you up to date concerning our long and rich history.
Dear Nick Makmai #14:
Forgot to mention to you about the Franco-Siamese War of 1941, when Thailand (called Siam back then) launched a successful major military offensive against the Colonial France to retake Cambodia.
Forgot to mention to you about the Franco-Siamese War of 1941, when Thailand (called Siam back then) launched a successful major military offensive against the Colonial France to retake Cambodia.
Comment 21
roby date : 26/03/2010 time : 00:03
date : 26/03/2010 time : 00:03
Sunny,
Lets put it this way. I do not need to put others down in order to lift myself up so I can feel good about myself and wear a yellow shirt. I am a champion for the poor and down trodden. All others are posers and elitist wannabees
Lets put it this way. I do not need to put others down in order to lift myself up so I can feel good about myself and wear a yellow shirt. I am a champion for the poor and down trodden. All others are posers and elitist wannabees
Comment 22
nick makmai date : 26/03/2010 time : 09:16
date : 26/03/2010 time : 09:16
To reply to #19 and #20. My context about religion was that Buddhism has never been the cause of war by itself not that Thailand never had war or fight with other countries. It designates the level of patience of people.
Comment 23
Sandman date : 26/03/2010 time : 12:04
date : 26/03/2010 time : 12:04
If you want to know why Thailand is so screwed up go look in a mirror. If you want to know why your society is so corrupt then repeat the process.
Your culture teaches that telling lies is acceptable to save face, and taking bribes is part of every day life. You kow tow and grovel in the dust whether the person you do this to deserves respect or not. Your media is full of unsubstantiated rumors and gossip, and investigative journalism is an alien concept. Your police are just a mafia in brown, and they and your army follow no orders but their own. Your kids are not taught to think logically or reason, and duty is the dish of the day rather than responsibility. Your TV is swimming ear deep in trashy soaps and chat shows rather than anything with real educational or social value. Mai pen rai is the national motto. Face is everything, substance nothing.
Basically you have inherited all of the ills of the west and none of its better bits. Thailand is slipping towards demo-crazy while most of the population mutter Mai Pen Rai and go back to their som tam snacks.
I could go on and on.... but what would I know?
Im just another farang ATM on legs.
som nam na Thailand.
Your culture teaches that telling lies is acceptable to save face, and taking bribes is part of every day life. You kow tow and grovel in the dust whether the person you do this to deserves respect or not. Your media is full of unsubstantiated rumors and gossip, and investigative journalism is an alien concept. Your police are just a mafia in brown, and they and your army follow no orders but their own. Your kids are not taught to think logically or reason, and duty is the dish of the day rather than responsibility. Your TV is swimming ear deep in trashy soaps and chat shows rather than anything with real educational or social value. Mai pen rai is the national motto. Face is everything, substance nothing.
Basically you have inherited all of the ills of the west and none of its better bits. Thailand is slipping towards demo-crazy while most of the population mutter Mai Pen Rai and go back to their som tam snacks.
I could go on and on.... but what would I know?
Im just another farang ATM on legs.
som nam na Thailand.
Comment 24
Sandman date : 26/03/2010 time : 12:12
date : 26/03/2010 time : 12:12
"Buddism never caused any war in the history of mindkind."
well Nick I suggest you get your history education out of a history book rather than off the back of a cerial box.
Try reading the history of any of the following countries and repeating that claim:
Thailand/Laos/Cambodia
Sri Lanka
Japan
Afghanistan/Central Asia
China
Tibet
India
Burma
well Nick I suggest you get your history education out of a history book rather than off the back of a cerial box.
Try reading the history of any of the following countries and repeating that claim:
Thailand/Laos/Cambodia
Sri Lanka
Japan
Afghanistan/Central Asia
China
Tibet
India
Burma
Comment 25
roby date : 26/03/2010 time : 13:05
date : 26/03/2010 time : 13:05
Looong, so you think destroying tourism by closing the airport and closing the industrial complex to destroy foreign capital investment is the right man for which job exactly? Net capital outflows far exceed net capital inflows at this time. Keeping the poor and down trodden under subjugation to the elitist wannabees will end during the next business up cycle. Allow me to inform you of something. In the next two decades and its already starting now that there will be a world wide food shortage as 3 billion people will start eating an additional meal per day. The rice farmers in Thailand and Vietnam will be a major supplier of food to the world. You cannot subjugate your most prized industry and peoples. At that time rice exports will exceed textile exports. Its too late to further subjugate and maintain the income disparity status quo between the elitist wannabee posers and the country folk you like to use to lift yourself up. Wearing a yellow shirt puts you on the wrong side of history at this time. You will see this happen beginning in the next business up cycle.
Comment 26
nick makmai date : 26/03/2010 time : 15:45
date : 26/03/2010 time : 15:45
Dear Mr.Sandman, I really do not know where you are from, I agree that you can see many Thais with the said habbits in comment #23, however they are not necessary the main stream of Thais. I believe you have been associating or being surrounded with those types of people in daily life for you mentioned about som-tam. Even that I look at those people as they are trying to make a living to survive. I have lived and visited 24 countries in the world they all have good and bad to different degrees. Many things so bad that they never been mentioned openly even in the western world.
As for your comment #24, you have to believe me that I read quite a bit of English books and I still confirm my point/knowledge except that you may miss my context. There was no war due to Buddhism as Buddhist does not force people to believe in what you believe or having faith.
As for your comment #24, you have to believe me that I read quite a bit of English books and I still confirm my point/knowledge except that you may miss my context. There was no war due to Buddhism as Buddhist does not force people to believe in what you believe or having faith.
Comment 27
Victor date : 27/03/2010 time : 00:59
date : 27/03/2010 time : 00:59
Sandman's comment about all the bad things in Thailand cannot be denied because that was what he saw (or wanted to see). And by having put his ugly thought (or should it be his thought about all the ugly things?) in writing I hope he will get better, at least for the sake of his immediate family. Living with a moody never-see-anything- good people is a pain and it's contageous too.
And I think he should take some time off and get away from his Soi Nana gang once in a while to clear up his head.
And I think he should take some time off and get away from his Soi Nana gang once in a while to clear up his head.
Dear Nick Makmai #22,
"Buddhism has never been the cause of war by itself."
May I ask you how you separate Buddhists from Buddhism, Hindus from Hinduism, Christians from Christianity, or Muslims from Islam?
"It designates the level of patience of people."
Really? You must be blind not to see the "Sea of Reds" in Bangkok right now with bombs going off all over the place.
So much for "level of patience!"
"Buddhism has never been the cause of war by itself."
May I ask you how you separate Buddhists from Buddhism, Hindus from Hinduism, Christians from Christianity, or Muslims from Islam?
"It designates the level of patience of people."
Really? You must be blind not to see the "Sea of Reds" in Bangkok right now with bombs going off all over the place.
So much for "level of patience!"
Comment 30
nick makmai date : 27/03/2010 time : 10:25
date : 27/03/2010 time : 10:25
Reply to #28. You have missed my point too. Sea of reds was not created by religion purpose but political interest. This exactly same demonstration if occurs in some other parts of the world, there would be a lot of killings already. Religion is one of a major fundamental element nurtures people culture other than their surrounding elements every where in the world. Thai society does not want violence but adversely the rule of law is being challenged. Current government has just worked for a little more than one year and things got better relative quick. Majority of Thais who are mostly in silence support Khun Apisith for the top post. Thaksin wants to turn the country to his favor and wealth causing this melee without thinking for the country benefit. He want to buy the poors cheaply as number of hands counted the same. Even he could return to Thailand I am not quite sure what would happen to him. Please be patient thing will get settle timely.
Comment 31
nick makmai date : 27/03/2010 time : 10:27
date : 27/03/2010 time : 10:27
Reply to #28. You have missed my point too. Sea of reds was not created by religion purpose but political interest. This exactly same demonstration if occurs in some other parts of the world, there would be a lot of killings already. Religion is one of a major fundamental element nurtures people culture other than their surrounding elements every where in the world. Thai society does not want violence but adversely the rule of law is being challenged. Current government has just worked for a little more than one year and things got better relative quick. Majority of Thais who are mostly in silence support Khun Apisith for the top post. Thaksin wants to turn the country to his favor and wealth causing this melee without thinking for the country benefit. He want to buy the poors cheaply as number of hands counted the same. Even he could return to Thailand I am not quite sure what would happen to him. Please be patient thing will get settle timely.
Comment 32
cashjones date : 27/03/2010 time : 12:01
date : 27/03/2010 time : 12:01
I read this article and watched it go 360 degrees. An obvious intellectual thesis ended in ambiguity. I will not comment on the heart of the matter. I have been a mere observer to this squall. Your ending; "We must set our own agenda", is exactly what they are attempting to do-right or wrong-not my call. Actually as an external observer I am impressed by both sides. The Red Shirts have apparently done their best to maintain as much of a peaceful demonstration as is possible, with their numbers. The military has done an outstanding job of indifference to a situation that puts them in the middle of something they would much rather not be involved with. I'm pretty sure in most nations that a rally even, with these types of numbers could ever be conducted as well as has been in Thailand. Red shirts have been duped by a grand thief (albeit a good one). Yellow shirts were duped by idealism that can never be accomplished. If, in fact all police are corrupt...?...Simply usurp their power and see how you get along with that scenario. I have no answers for you, just as I have no answers in my own country for what is happening. I just know when (not if) it happens in my country, it will not be as tolerant as is yours. I commend the Thailand I see and have known. Although this wears on your citizenry, I salute Thailand-my friends.
Comment 33
Ratadaung date : 27/03/2010 time : 18:19
date : 27/03/2010 time : 18:19
Yeap. I 'm so confused how to answer my students' question, which one, red-shirts or the government is doing the right thing. I really don't know whom I can trust.
Dear Nick Makmai #30:
As I asked you before how you can separate Buddhists from Buddhism. My point is the Red, Yellow, Green, and Blue Shirts are all Buddhists. Thaksin himself is a Buddhist, although his murderous War on Yha Bha was anything but "Buddhist."
Countless (Buddhist) Thai lives were loss during many antigovernment demonstrations since Thanom-Prapart through Sujindar regimes.
Many lives and limbs were also lost among the Yellow Shirts by the murderous hands of the (Red) police, during their recent antigovernment demonstration. Their leader's car looked like Swiss cheese after being sprayed with hundred of bullets but Sonthi Lim miraculously lived to tell the tale.
The current Red Shirts' demonstration is relatively peaceful at the moment, because they know one wrong bloody move by them will be repaid inkind by the Green, Blue and the Yellow Shirts who are running out of patinece fast.
My question to you is why so many E-San and Northern Buddhist Thais are unable to discern what is right and wrong in their continued unwavering support for Thaksin?
Apisit is a minority PM, who had PM title landing right on his lap. As a result he isn't a democratically elected PM, a weak PM by definition. He is being put and kept in office mainly because of the Green, Blue Shirts, and reluctantly supported by the Yellow Shirts.
The current conflict is a crash between the rules of law and majority rule. The former is based on the concept of right and wrong, while the latter is all about sheer numbers.
For Democracy to work, majority rule must be exercised within the rules of law. Othewise, it is a Mob Rule.
However, the problem is that what is right and wrong in Thailand depends on whom you asked. No universal right and wrong means no rules of Law. And with that, Democracy is not possible.
As I asked you before how you can separate Buddhists from Buddhism. My point is the Red, Yellow, Green, and Blue Shirts are all Buddhists. Thaksin himself is a Buddhist, although his murderous War on Yha Bha was anything but "Buddhist."
Countless (Buddhist) Thai lives were loss during many antigovernment demonstrations since Thanom-Prapart through Sujindar regimes.
Many lives and limbs were also lost among the Yellow Shirts by the murderous hands of the (Red) police, during their recent antigovernment demonstration. Their leader's car looked like Swiss cheese after being sprayed with hundred of bullets but Sonthi Lim miraculously lived to tell the tale.
The current Red Shirts' demonstration is relatively peaceful at the moment, because they know one wrong bloody move by them will be repaid inkind by the Green, Blue and the Yellow Shirts who are running out of patinece fast.
My question to you is why so many E-San and Northern Buddhist Thais are unable to discern what is right and wrong in their continued unwavering support for Thaksin?
Apisit is a minority PM, who had PM title landing right on his lap. As a result he isn't a democratically elected PM, a weak PM by definition. He is being put and kept in office mainly because of the Green, Blue Shirts, and reluctantly supported by the Yellow Shirts.
The current conflict is a crash between the rules of law and majority rule. The former is based on the concept of right and wrong, while the latter is all about sheer numbers.
For Democracy to work, majority rule must be exercised within the rules of law. Othewise, it is a Mob Rule.
However, the problem is that what is right and wrong in Thailand depends on whom you asked. No universal right and wrong means no rules of Law. And with that, Democracy is not possible.
Dear Nick Makmai #30:
Religion, or the lack of it, forms (people's) belief. Belief forms value & principle, which becomes a basis for tradition & culture of society, including political tradition & culture.
So, I don't see how you can separate religion from the people practicing it. Of course, if enough Thai people follow the purity of Buddhism by literally following the footsteps of Gautama Siddahtha, the Buddha, Thailand would become a nation full of priests and monks similar to Tibet.
We all know why the Dalai Lama is no longer living in his palace in Tibet, but living as a refugee in India along with other Tibetan refugees.
In a sense, I'm glad that Thailand is not like Tibet, otherwise, we would still be speaking Burmese right now.
As I said religion belief is the backbone of any nation. If it is fragile or weak, so is the nation.
Religion, or the lack of it, forms (people's) belief. Belief forms value & principle, which becomes a basis for tradition & culture of society, including political tradition & culture.
So, I don't see how you can separate religion from the people practicing it. Of course, if enough Thai people follow the purity of Buddhism by literally following the footsteps of Gautama Siddahtha, the Buddha, Thailand would become a nation full of priests and monks similar to Tibet.
We all know why the Dalai Lama is no longer living in his palace in Tibet, but living as a refugee in India along with other Tibetan refugees.
In a sense, I'm glad that Thailand is not like Tibet, otherwise, we would still be speaking Burmese right now.
As I said religion belief is the backbone of any nation. If it is fragile or weak, so is the nation.
Comment 36
Victor date : 28/03/2010 time : 02:16
date : 28/03/2010 time : 02:16
Cashjones,
I think your 360 degree comment missed the mark by about 180 degree, due south.
I think your 360 degree comment missed the mark by about 180 degree, due south.
Dear Ratadaung #33:
The problem is in the meaning of "the right thing." Unless, you can define it, you cannot tell your students what is "the wrong thing."
Right now the Reds claim to have an absolute majority, while the Yellows, Greens, and Blues, claim that they have the rules of law on their side.
So, unless everybody agrees on the same meaning of what is right and what is wrong, there will never be peace, love, and joy in Thailand, as long as, Thaksin lives.
The problem is in the meaning of "the right thing." Unless, you can define it, you cannot tell your students what is "the wrong thing."
Right now the Reds claim to have an absolute majority, while the Yellows, Greens, and Blues, claim that they have the rules of law on their side.
So, unless everybody agrees on the same meaning of what is right and what is wrong, there will never be peace, love, and joy in Thailand, as long as, Thaksin lives.
Comment 38
Spin Doctor date : 28/03/2010 time : 04:11
date : 28/03/2010 time : 04:11
The Government should be proactive.
Actions speak much louder than words.
So this week, the Government could announce a 30 baht per HOSPITAL visit scheme for Thai households earning, say, less than 150,000 baht a year.
A simple way to politically "trump" Thaksin in the North, improve the lives of millions of ordinary Thais and build a better future for Thailand.
Actions speak much louder than words.
So this week, the Government could announce a 30 baht per HOSPITAL visit scheme for Thai households earning, say, less than 150,000 baht a year.
A simple way to politically "trump" Thaksin in the North, improve the lives of millions of ordinary Thais and build a better future for Thailand.
Comment 39
Jimbo date : 28/03/2010 time : 11:56
I certainly agree with sandman here. In my observations Thailand is now beginning to reap what it has sown for decades and longer. All your laughing and tomfoolery, your grovelling to people who never earned the respect they demand, and your mai pen rai (couldn't give a damn) outlook has got you where you currently are.
Comment 40
Victor date : 28/03/2010 time : 13:59
date : 28/03/2010 time : 13:59
Jimbo,
Your translation of Mai Pen Rai as "couldn't give a damn" is not really correct and much too negative.
The real meaning should be "it doesn't matter"
But, then, it really doesn't matter how you percieved it to mean... because I DON'T GIVE A DAMN either.
Your translation of Mai Pen Rai as "couldn't give a damn" is not really correct and much too negative.
The real meaning should be "it doesn't matter"
But, then, it really doesn't matter how you percieved it to mean... because I DON'T GIVE A DAMN either.
Comment 41
Kahuna date : 29/03/2010 time : 03:52
date : 29/03/2010 time : 03:52
What an excellent posting followed by so many unintelligent comments. "Rule of Law" in Thailand is an oxymoron. The fact is that he who rules, makes the laws.
Does any actually believe that Thaksin invented or held the monopoly on corruption?
Does anyone actually believe that the paralyzing of the country by the Yellow had nothing to do with the Court decision to dissolve the government?
The fact of the matter is that the poor majority was benefitted by the populism of Thaksin. However corrupt his government was (whether more or less than his predecessors or successors is up for debate), the farmers in the north felt they were finally paid attention to and their needs addressed. The disenfranchisement they feel is in large part the foundation for current protests. Not the 200 baht per day, not the food, not the drink. Unless the current government recognizes and addresses this situation, none of this will go away.
Does any actually believe that Thaksin invented or held the monopoly on corruption?
Does anyone actually believe that the paralyzing of the country by the Yellow had nothing to do with the Court decision to dissolve the government?
The fact of the matter is that the poor majority was benefitted by the populism of Thaksin. However corrupt his government was (whether more or less than his predecessors or successors is up for debate), the farmers in the north felt they were finally paid attention to and their needs addressed. The disenfranchisement they feel is in large part the foundation for current protests. Not the 200 baht per day, not the food, not the drink. Unless the current government recognizes and addresses this situation, none of this will go away.
Dear Kahuna #41:
I don't disagree that the poor majority has been neglected for long time prior to Thaksin's entering into politics. However, Thaksin's approach was all wrong.
Like any typical developing countries, we must make the "Two Worlds" economic development model work. Taiwan, Malaysia, and the rest of the "Tigers" were successful in growing both the traditionally rural and modern economic sectors. The two sectors were finally integrated into one economic powerhouse.
Thaksin's approach of alienating the growing middle class in favor of the rural poor would never work. I wish he would focus on growing the middle class which would trigger down to the poor, in term of meaningful and productive opportunity and employment.
When professional politicians were corrupted, it was understandable. But when the richest man like Thaksin did it, it was unacceptable, especially when he was invited to become Thai PM, with high hope and expectation that he would utilize his business talent for the country, instead of his own business empire.
The scale of his corruption is beyond belief. If it was smaller or equal to that of his predecessors, he would still be in PM Office today.
All I can say for Thaskin is, "Best hope turning into the worst nightmare." At the end, there is no shortcut into prosperity, other than all Thai getting together and do it the old fashion way.
I don't disagree that the poor majority has been neglected for long time prior to Thaksin's entering into politics. However, Thaksin's approach was all wrong.
Like any typical developing countries, we must make the "Two Worlds" economic development model work. Taiwan, Malaysia, and the rest of the "Tigers" were successful in growing both the traditionally rural and modern economic sectors. The two sectors were finally integrated into one economic powerhouse.
Thaksin's approach of alienating the growing middle class in favor of the rural poor would never work. I wish he would focus on growing the middle class which would trigger down to the poor, in term of meaningful and productive opportunity and employment.
When professional politicians were corrupted, it was understandable. But when the richest man like Thaksin did it, it was unacceptable, especially when he was invited to become Thai PM, with high hope and expectation that he would utilize his business talent for the country, instead of his own business empire.
The scale of his corruption is beyond belief. If it was smaller or equal to that of his predecessors, he would still be in PM Office today.
All I can say for Thaskin is, "Best hope turning into the worst nightmare." At the end, there is no shortcut into prosperity, other than all Thai getting together and do it the old fashion way.
Comment 43
Victor date : 30/03/2010 time : 02:56
date : 30/03/2010 time : 02:56
After 2 rounds of talk between the PM and the red shirt's major faction I do believe that we still have some hope even though both sides 'agreed to disagree'.
And I sure hope that they will continue this face-to-face dialogue for a while longer because, the longer they are at it, the more we the people will be able to know more about each side's real color.
Then, when the time come, we can decide on our future with a clearer conscience.
And I sure hope that they will continue this face-to-face dialogue for a while longer because, the longer they are at it, the more we the people will be able to know more about each side's real color.
Then, when the time come, we can decide on our future with a clearer conscience.
Comment 44
Charlies date : 30/03/2010 time : 14:46
date : 30/03/2010 time : 14:46
It is an interesting article...
As far as I can tell now because ThaiLand has so many political group of colors which is good but what if they are not in the same direction which they are not at the moment.
Only WAR can bring PEACE. History happen before.
As far as I can tell now because ThaiLand has so many political group of colors which is good but what if they are not in the same direction which they are not at the moment.
Only WAR can bring PEACE. History happen before.
Comment 45
chang pheuk date : 30/03/2010 time : 14:56
date : 30/03/2010 time : 14:56
It's a shame Sunitsuda's thoughtful essay was followed by such drivel.... you folks seem only interested in putting others down
Comment 46
khun stupid date : 30/03/2010 time : 16:44
it will stop if selfish certain people stop,it will stop if uneducated people get a chance,it will stop if certain people stop intervening,in england queen Elisabeth is waving into the crowds,and look good,and surely she has good consultants,and very sure she would never ever have the idea to put her nose into politics,if certain people would try to accept, it is 2010 and not 1800...... I don't like former PM MR.Thaksin,but since he left, Thailand is going down.Thailand is going down because of selfish people,who worry they loose money,or worry they can't keep the northeastern slaves anymore,slaves who work for 3-5000baht a month,i feel sad for Thailand and feel sad for the majority of people from Thailand.Time Military goes away,or Thailand ends up as Myanmar
Comment 47
Scott date : 30/03/2010 time : 17:30
date : 30/03/2010 time : 17:30
I always enjoy and learn from your articles, thank you for that.
I keep coming back to the concept that democracy is rule by the people for the people. The base problem is that after the election is over and they have bought or won their position, they switch back to the established feudal mindset and use the people as serfs rather than thinking of them as their responsability.
I keep coming back to the concept that democracy is rule by the people for the people. The base problem is that after the election is over and they have bought or won their position, they switch back to the established feudal mindset and use the people as serfs rather than thinking of them as their responsability.
Comment 49
Neutral date : 31/03/2010 time : 05:26
date : 31/03/2010 time : 05:26
Spiceman. I tink you are wrong to say that Malaysia has successfully merge the rural and modern economy.
Malaysia rural economy has been compromised to a stage whereby they have to import most of their basic foods. The price control system and corruption have wrecked the free market dynamics. The government has been ravaging the forest for palm oil. Malaysia is a poor example. Try again.
Malaysia rural economy has been compromised to a stage whereby they have to import most of their basic foods. The price control system and corruption have wrecked the free market dynamics. The government has been ravaging the forest for palm oil. Malaysia is a poor example. Try again.
Dear Neutral #48:
Thailand's GDP per capita is about half of that of Malaysia's to begin with.
Average Malaysians enjoy higher buying power than the Thai counterparts. That's why Thai people like to go shopping over there.
Malaysia has a much better anti-corruption system than we has and that seems to be the key to their rapid economic development, esp, in electronic sector.
Malaysian forests are much greener and more diverse than ours. I hope you're aware how bad is illegal logging in Thailand.
What's wrong with growing oil-palm trees? Malaysian oil-palm plantations are like our rice fields.
Finally, we are yet to see a political crisis in Malaysia to the extent we're witnessing in Thailand right now. Do you realize how much damage the crisis has cost Thailand so far in lost revenue, esp, in tourism?
Whatever system Malaysia is operating under, it is working extremely well and Malaysians have a lot to show for it.
Malaysia is much more diverse in terms of ethnic and religious makeup than Thailand. And that doesn't stop them from achieving their economic miracle.
Finally, Thailand's population, as well as, religious makeup is nearly homogeneous as compared to Malaysia's and we can hardly get along with one another, especially, right now.
Thailand's GDP per capita is about half of that of Malaysia's to begin with.
Average Malaysians enjoy higher buying power than the Thai counterparts. That's why Thai people like to go shopping over there.
Malaysia has a much better anti-corruption system than we has and that seems to be the key to their rapid economic development, esp, in electronic sector.
Malaysian forests are much greener and more diverse than ours. I hope you're aware how bad is illegal logging in Thailand.
What's wrong with growing oil-palm trees? Malaysian oil-palm plantations are like our rice fields.
Finally, we are yet to see a political crisis in Malaysia to the extent we're witnessing in Thailand right now. Do you realize how much damage the crisis has cost Thailand so far in lost revenue, esp, in tourism?
Whatever system Malaysia is operating under, it is working extremely well and Malaysians have a lot to show for it.
Malaysia is much more diverse in terms of ethnic and religious makeup than Thailand. And that doesn't stop them from achieving their economic miracle.
Finally, Thailand's population, as well as, religious makeup is nearly homogeneous as compared to Malaysia's and we can hardly get along with one another, especially, right now.
Comment 51
jiradhammo date : 31/03/2010 time : 17:30
date : 31/03/2010 time : 17:30
All your comments are good.
But your fight is secondary.
Thailand is not a Buddhistc country.
The death penalty.
Study the Teaching of Adjahn Phaisan Visalo.
Then we met again.
But your fight is secondary.
Thailand is not a Buddhistc country.
The death penalty.
Study the Teaching of Adjahn Phaisan Visalo.
Then we met again.
Comment 52
PaulC date : 01/04/2010 time : 02:34
date : 01/04/2010 time : 02:34A mistake of biblical proportions was when the army and police stood by and watched the yellow shirts occupy the gov. building and the 2 airports. No action was taken and the yellow shirts moved on only after they got everything they wanted. To date no one has been charged, civilly or criminally for the damage they caused and they will never be charged.
The PM is appointed, no one can argue that he was not elected and no effort is being made to schedule elections. As long as you have government by the rich and powerful you will have trouble. The rising middle class and poor are becoming more aware and will not tolerate it as in years past.
Dear jiradhammo #50:
If we are not a Buddhist country, what are we?
Has the last Govt just made Buddhism to be the only national religion of Thailand?
If we are not a Buddhist country, what are we?
Has the last Govt just made Buddhism to be the only national religion of Thailand?
Comment 54
Shepard Wright date : 01/04/2010 time : 05:18
date : 01/04/2010 time : 05:18
The situation will end when the country has a new election without vote buying by either side.
The situation will end when corrupt police get paid higher salaries so they don't have to act like mafia hudlums.
The situation will end when the poor people in the Northeast and North have the same opportunies as the Hi-Sos in in Bangkok have. In education and upward mobility, hiring practices, etc.
The situation will change when farangs and their thai spouses are able to buy land to settle down and offer their children a stable foundation instead of the present way which condones putting land under wife's names and having a short time land grab. In any other country this is called stealing, or fraud. You could see how the present law against farangs owning land could turn into a land churning business with thai women marrying, then divorcing, getting the land and house, and then starting the whole scam over again.
When farangs pay same prices for food, entertainment, room leases, hotels, then you may change the hearts and minds
of farangs of Thailand being a corrupt nation with a bunch of crooks and liars.
When your schools and institutions teach
that immigration is something to embrace, instead of teaching xenophobia, and false steriotypes against blacks, burmese, cambodians, muslims, and indians, farangs and other immigrants to your country.
This will end when your systemized
rascism regarding white skin color being the most desireable quality in a person's appearance. This is in direct
conflict to the fact that most Thais
are not lily white.
The situation will become better when all the jewellry scams, double pricing,
and the other 100 scams against farangs stop. Note: too late for gem businesses
in Thailand. The farangs woke up to this scam and never came back to buy gems and jewelry.
The situation will get better when you open up your markets and let the foreigners buy land!!! Why would a farang want to invest in a country with the odds stacked against him???? A parallel can be drawn to a short time with a bar girl, and the policy that will be sure to be stacked against the farang to only remain in Thailand for a short time while he gets fleeced by his Thai partners who only want his business to fail so they can swoop in and take over.
Thailand once had a chance to be the next Singapore. It had a great chance timprove the lives of the poor as well as the middle class.
Now I only see Thailand on a primrose path to failure.
Take notice.
And the worst decision was to get rid of
Bernard Trink. He was what we call in the West a public advocate for the farangs that don't understand the Thai mentality and did not want them to return home with their head between their legs, poor and demoralized.
I could write 100 pages of more
golden wisdom as it pertains to thailand, but I have come to the conclusion that "Thais know it All".
By the way if Thais know it all, why is it that Thailand has never won a Nobel
Prize, and the Jews with a population of less than 18 million worldwide have won at least a third of all Nobel Prizes. It is based on education, the importance on family, and some good genetics. On the other hand, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia, and
Malaysia has only won one and that was by the woman in Burma fighting for democracy.
So, learn by the wisdom that I espousing in this letter. Fang Dee Dee, Phut Dee Dee, Kit Dee Dee.
The Thais can learn a lot from a smart farang.
Thanks
Shepard Wright
The situation will end when corrupt police get paid higher salaries so they don't have to act like mafia hudlums.
The situation will end when the poor people in the Northeast and North have the same opportunies as the Hi-Sos in in Bangkok have. In education and upward mobility, hiring practices, etc.
The situation will change when farangs and their thai spouses are able to buy land to settle down and offer their children a stable foundation instead of the present way which condones putting land under wife's names and having a short time land grab. In any other country this is called stealing, or fraud. You could see how the present law against farangs owning land could turn into a land churning business with thai women marrying, then divorcing, getting the land and house, and then starting the whole scam over again.
When farangs pay same prices for food, entertainment, room leases, hotels, then you may change the hearts and minds
of farangs of Thailand being a corrupt nation with a bunch of crooks and liars.
When your schools and institutions teach
that immigration is something to embrace, instead of teaching xenophobia, and false steriotypes against blacks, burmese, cambodians, muslims, and indians, farangs and other immigrants to your country.
This will end when your systemized
rascism regarding white skin color being the most desireable quality in a person's appearance. This is in direct
conflict to the fact that most Thais
are not lily white.
The situation will become better when all the jewellry scams, double pricing,
and the other 100 scams against farangs stop. Note: too late for gem businesses
in Thailand. The farangs woke up to this scam and never came back to buy gems and jewelry.
The situation will get better when you open up your markets and let the foreigners buy land!!! Why would a farang want to invest in a country with the odds stacked against him???? A parallel can be drawn to a short time with a bar girl, and the policy that will be sure to be stacked against the farang to only remain in Thailand for a short time while he gets fleeced by his Thai partners who only want his business to fail so they can swoop in and take over.
Thailand once had a chance to be the next Singapore. It had a great chance timprove the lives of the poor as well as the middle class.
Now I only see Thailand on a primrose path to failure.
Take notice.
And the worst decision was to get rid of
Bernard Trink. He was what we call in the West a public advocate for the farangs that don't understand the Thai mentality and did not want them to return home with their head between their legs, poor and demoralized.
I could write 100 pages of more
golden wisdom as it pertains to thailand, but I have come to the conclusion that "Thais know it All".
By the way if Thais know it all, why is it that Thailand has never won a Nobel
Prize, and the Jews with a population of less than 18 million worldwide have won at least a third of all Nobel Prizes. It is based on education, the importance on family, and some good genetics. On the other hand, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia, and
Malaysia has only won one and that was by the woman in Burma fighting for democracy.
So, learn by the wisdom that I espousing in this letter. Fang Dee Dee, Phut Dee Dee, Kit Dee Dee.
The Thais can learn a lot from a smart farang.
Thanks
Shepard Wright
Comment 55
Neutral date : 01/04/2010 time : 05:56
date : 01/04/2010 time : 05:56
Sawadee Spiceman, we have some differences in facts. Malaysia politics is highly suppressed by the media, police and the ruling party. Tough police acts & the dreaded ISA prevent Malaysians exercising their democratic rights to protest. I suggest you go to this website to understand the troubling political undertone - http://malaysia-today.net
I would agree with you on per capital income. Stillthat is based on population and Malaysia is 1/3 Thailand.
As for the corruption index, I think you are far from the mark. Here are the facts:-
Malaysia Thai
Political party 3.9 4.1
Parliment & leg 3.3 3.1
Biz/private 3.4 3.2
Media 2.7 2.8
Civil servants 3.7 3.6
Judiciary 3.1 2.8
Average 3.4 3.3
This from the Global Corruption Index 2009. As a comparision, Singapore average is 2.2.
(the lower number denote less corrupton)
As for palm plantation, there really nothing wrong if you don't ravage the forest, slash & burn and convert from rice fields.
I would agree with you on per capital income. Stillthat is based on population and Malaysia is 1/3 Thailand.
As for the corruption index, I think you are far from the mark. Here are the facts:-
Malaysia Thai
Political party 3.9 4.1
Parliment & leg 3.3 3.1
Biz/private 3.4 3.2
Media 2.7 2.8
Civil servants 3.7 3.6
Judiciary 3.1 2.8
Average 3.4 3.3
This from the Global Corruption Index 2009. As a comparision, Singapore average is 2.2.
(the lower number denote less corrupton)
As for palm plantation, there really nothing wrong if you don't ravage the forest, slash & burn and convert from rice fields.
Dear Shepard Wright #53:
99% of Thais are Buddhists and unless you can change the people's fundamental belief to be something else, other than Buddhism, nothing will ever change.
You mentioned a tiny nation of Singapore but how come more Farangs prefer living here in Thailand other than Singapore?
You can't be coming here and demanding Thailand to be like wherever you came from. It's not going to happen. It's easy for you to go back to wherever you're from.
Remember the former Swedish bank rubber, "the Beast," who found his new wonderful life in E-San? The people in his village, including the Thai immigration, obviously love him to death and I don't think he wants Thailand to be like Sweden, where he left his past messy life behind.
The easiest way to win Thai people over is to learn to speak our language and to respect our custom and tradition. Once that is done, the rest is downhill.
Do you seriously want Thai people to be perfect? Are you perfect? Let's look at the US, which was once a near-perfect country. All hells are about to break loose over there, economically, and politically.
The same can be said in many European countries like Greece, and England.
So I suggest you learn to love who or what we are, or catch the first flight out to wherever you came from.
99% of Thais are Buddhists and unless you can change the people's fundamental belief to be something else, other than Buddhism, nothing will ever change.
You mentioned a tiny nation of Singapore but how come more Farangs prefer living here in Thailand other than Singapore?
You can't be coming here and demanding Thailand to be like wherever you came from. It's not going to happen. It's easy for you to go back to wherever you're from.
Remember the former Swedish bank rubber, "the Beast," who found his new wonderful life in E-San? The people in his village, including the Thai immigration, obviously love him to death and I don't think he wants Thailand to be like Sweden, where he left his past messy life behind.
The easiest way to win Thai people over is to learn to speak our language and to respect our custom and tradition. Once that is done, the rest is downhill.
Do you seriously want Thai people to be perfect? Are you perfect? Let's look at the US, which was once a near-perfect country. All hells are about to break loose over there, economically, and politically.
The same can be said in many European countries like Greece, and England.
So I suggest you learn to love who or what we are, or catch the first flight out to wherever you came from.
Comment 58
George date : 01/04/2010 time : 16:18
date : 01/04/2010 time : 16:18
This is such a brave article to write, especially as it ispublished in what I have percieved is a highly one sided news paper.
You are completely correct, for Thailand to move on the corrupt elite must be conquered
Dear George #58:
All political ruling regimes in the world consist of oligarchy of one form or another. Yes, ruled by a small elite segment of society.
"Currupted Elite?" But which one, they are all corrupted? So take your pick!
All political ruling regimes in the world consist of oligarchy of one form or another. Yes, ruled by a small elite segment of society.
"Currupted Elite?" But which one, they are all corrupted? So take your pick!
Comment 60
patrick date : 03/04/2010 time : 08:51
date : 03/04/2010 time : 08:51
Yes unfortunately the world is ruled by corruption,and deciept,however that should not mean we should deter from at least trying to change that.
The other unfortunate fact is....that those with the least, and the most to gain, are seduced into supporting the very people that will deprive them of their dream......think about it please.
The other unfortunate fact is....that those with the least, and the most to gain, are seduced into supporting the very people that will deprive them of their dream......think about it please.
Comment 61
Polcady45 date : 03/04/2010 time : 18:32
date : 03/04/2010 time : 18:32
Hey spiceman... You're so spicy indeed!!
Certainly,I'm on your side esp in#56 . So,the way in leave comment(s) please make sure that you're ( yourself ) really good enough to criticize somebody else then don't show your unconstructive attitude towards native people. As Thai, I felt
disgusting with a smart western.
Certainly,I'm on your side esp in#56 . So,the way in leave comment(s) please make sure that you're ( yourself ) really good enough to criticize somebody else then don't show your unconstructive attitude towards native people. As Thai, I felt
disgusting with a smart western.
Comment 62
MOIZ P date : 04/04/2010 time : 09:09
date : 04/04/2010 time : 09:09
After reading Khun Sanitsuda Ekachai's article, hope for a resolving Thailand's social problems seems very much possible. The solution to the problem can only come from the masses and not the Elite by the way are only the relfection of what the masses aspire to be. Thai's unfortunately should go back to thier basics and understand thier culture and run thier country as accordingly in line with embracing the welfare of all citizens and residents of this country.
Regarding Khun Sanitsuda, I continue to read her blogs as she is one of my favourites who shows sense to all of us in all this madness taking place in one of my loved countries 'Thailand'.
Regarding Khun Sanitsuda, I continue to read her blogs as she is one of my favourites who shows sense to all of us in all this madness taking place in one of my loved countries 'Thailand'.
Comment 63
Mario date : 04/04/2010 time : 12:10
date : 04/04/2010 time : 12:10
A long way to go, but nevertheless..
Just the fact that such a thoughtful article about the current situation and the underlying issues can be openly published without being censored seems to me a fundamental pillar for Thailand to become a true democracy one day.
Just the fact that such a thoughtful article about the current situation and the underlying issues can be openly published without being censored seems to me a fundamental pillar for Thailand to become a true democracy one day.
There can be no peace without justice, it includes faith in the effect of tolerance of others or other groups who are on an other stage of development.
Dear SHARE #64:
Can you define "Justice" for me, please?
I've never heard "faith in the effect of tolerance of others" in my life.
As far as I know, the definition of Faith is "The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)
Can you define "Justice" for me, please?
I've never heard "faith in the effect of tolerance of others" in my life.
As far as I know, the definition of Faith is "The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)
I am amazed by this whole conversation. I cannot tell by the names what nationalities people are, but I assume almost all are Thai.
We are all lucky to have found this article by this wise woman. She makes the kind of sense I wish more Americans would. One commentator here said that the US, once some kind of model, was falling apart. That’s no joke. I don’t know if there will be violence here, but we sure have given up on the idea that this is some kind of representative democracy. And it’s very distressing to have at least two major camps here, both “hating” the status quo, but seemingly for almost diametrically opposite reasons. Or maybe they could agree on some things, but the stereotypes and actual differences in perceptions of reality and visions of “the good”, never mind naked self-interest, make it almost impossible to even talk across the divide.
Here, both camps have congressional representatives who have basically “sold out”. Representatives no longer ask in public, “What can we do that will benefit the most people, especially those who most need it?” And so demoralized are we that this is not even a problem for us anymore, or at least it hasn’t been, until now.
Sure, we have a few good representatives, honest and uncompromised, and thry try to get jobs for their constituents, but they don’t seem to spend any time thinking carefully what types of jobs would be most beneficial. (Producing arms seems to be a very popular job-creating industry. And they seem to very much support whatever businesses their highest paying campaign contributors are in. In this regard, I believe campaign financing is at least one of the roots of our corruption.)
From this great distance, the west coast of the US, it’s been difficult for me to figure out exactly who stands for what in Thailand. From what I have read here, it seems that you have two major camps, too, both of which could do great good for the Thai people, but their leadership is compromised, and allows corruption at many levels, including its own. (In the US, the corruption at the top is so institutionalized we call it “government” – or “business” as usual. I don’t know how corrupt things are further down.)
I wonder if, in either country or both countries, someone were to sincerely speak to what might actually do the people the most good, if that person could gain support from all sides. Someone here suggested excellent education for those who have not had it. A wealthy enough government not making good education for all people a constant priority is proof enough of that government’s illegitimacy or incompetence for me.
Sometimes I imagine a tradition I read about in a Chinese book being born, or reborn, the one in which the leader is raised up by the people. He or she does not seek the office – or power. If people choose you, you can refuse, but you cannot ask for the position. This idea is not incompatible with representative democracy, and might be tried, if the status quo did not serve so few so well. We can’t even get public financing of campaigns here, for heaven’s sake. Sanisuda Ekachai, the woman who wrote this article, would appear to be the kind of person I would raise up if I were Thai.
It was encouraging to read the specific demands of the Red Shirts. They are calling for fresh elections. They want the body that took over after the military coup to dissolve itself. And they want Taksin to be put back in office. If he is using his supporters, wouldn’t they know it? Or have they fallen for cheap talk, the way we do? If he is a good leader, as good as could be imagined, then I think I would be on the side of the Red Shirts. But if he is a fraud, then couldn’t someone uncorrupt stand up and independently propose the good things that Taksin only symbolizes and get the support of those who now support Taksin?
It feels, from here, that the Thai people take democracy seriously and still really believe it is possible to get it back, which is very encouraging. I hope you can retame your military and break the hold of your elites.
It SOUNDS so easy, but here, too, the financial elite and the libertarians/hyper-individualists and the representatives who have no vocation make change terribly difficult, and even a wonderful-seeming person like Obama seems not to be a great man of peace and justice, though whether he can’t or he won’t, we don't know.
We are all lucky to have found this article by this wise woman. She makes the kind of sense I wish more Americans would. One commentator here said that the US, once some kind of model, was falling apart. That’s no joke. I don’t know if there will be violence here, but we sure have given up on the idea that this is some kind of representative democracy. And it’s very distressing to have at least two major camps here, both “hating” the status quo, but seemingly for almost diametrically opposite reasons. Or maybe they could agree on some things, but the stereotypes and actual differences in perceptions of reality and visions of “the good”, never mind naked self-interest, make it almost impossible to even talk across the divide.
Here, both camps have congressional representatives who have basically “sold out”. Representatives no longer ask in public, “What can we do that will benefit the most people, especially those who most need it?” And so demoralized are we that this is not even a problem for us anymore, or at least it hasn’t been, until now.
Sure, we have a few good representatives, honest and uncompromised, and thry try to get jobs for their constituents, but they don’t seem to spend any time thinking carefully what types of jobs would be most beneficial. (Producing arms seems to be a very popular job-creating industry. And they seem to very much support whatever businesses their highest paying campaign contributors are in. In this regard, I believe campaign financing is at least one of the roots of our corruption.)
From this great distance, the west coast of the US, it’s been difficult for me to figure out exactly who stands for what in Thailand. From what I have read here, it seems that you have two major camps, too, both of which could do great good for the Thai people, but their leadership is compromised, and allows corruption at many levels, including its own. (In the US, the corruption at the top is so institutionalized we call it “government” – or “business” as usual. I don’t know how corrupt things are further down.)
I wonder if, in either country or both countries, someone were to sincerely speak to what might actually do the people the most good, if that person could gain support from all sides. Someone here suggested excellent education for those who have not had it. A wealthy enough government not making good education for all people a constant priority is proof enough of that government’s illegitimacy or incompetence for me.
Sometimes I imagine a tradition I read about in a Chinese book being born, or reborn, the one in which the leader is raised up by the people. He or she does not seek the office – or power. If people choose you, you can refuse, but you cannot ask for the position. This idea is not incompatible with representative democracy, and might be tried, if the status quo did not serve so few so well. We can’t even get public financing of campaigns here, for heaven’s sake. Sanisuda Ekachai, the woman who wrote this article, would appear to be the kind of person I would raise up if I were Thai.
It was encouraging to read the specific demands of the Red Shirts. They are calling for fresh elections. They want the body that took over after the military coup to dissolve itself. And they want Taksin to be put back in office. If he is using his supporters, wouldn’t they know it? Or have they fallen for cheap talk, the way we do? If he is a good leader, as good as could be imagined, then I think I would be on the side of the Red Shirts. But if he is a fraud, then couldn’t someone uncorrupt stand up and independently propose the good things that Taksin only symbolizes and get the support of those who now support Taksin?
It feels, from here, that the Thai people take democracy seriously and still really believe it is possible to get it back, which is very encouraging. I hope you can retame your military and break the hold of your elites.
It SOUNDS so easy, but here, too, the financial elite and the libertarians/hyper-individualists and the representatives who have no vocation make change terribly difficult, and even a wonderful-seeming person like Obama seems not to be a great man of peace and justice, though whether he can’t or he won’t, we don't know.
Comment 67
P. Thavat date : 05/04/2010 time : 10:55
date : 05/04/2010 time : 10:55
I agreed with Victor's comment. The poor in Thailand live in a life style that perpetuates their own helplessness. Abhisit's ambition in his plan to provide free education as a mean to break the poverty vicious cycle is a bit far fetch. For that too requires great effort by the recipients to learn. All are crying out for democracy without really understand how democracy functions. The kind of 'representative democracy' is obviously misunderstood by the demonstrators. Perhaps, they confused the American style of presidency election with that of the members of Parliament electing a prime minister which is the system in Thailand.
What so tedious and tiresome is having to witness all the misinformed carrying the banners demanding a house dissolution as if that is a 'cure-all' recipe. If they are hit by 'Democracy' full in the face, I wonder if they would really understand what hit them.
What so tedious and tiresome is having to witness all the misinformed carrying the banners demanding a house dissolution as if that is a 'cure-all' recipe. If they are hit by 'Democracy' full in the face, I wonder if they would really understand what hit them.
Dear Celine #66:
It's always refreshing to hear a different point of view coming from outside. The imminent collapse of the US as one unified nation is "no joke" indeed.
Out of my curiosity, I hope you will be able to answer a few of my questions.
First, if Democracy is such a marvelous system of Govt as you said, how come your Founding Fathers didn't adopt it into the US Constitution? In fact, they did everything possible to limit its role to be well within the constitutional framework. In fact, they were heavily influenced by Alexander Tyler's "Death by Democracy." The US constitutional framework has been under attacked by liberal politicians for long time, but only sucessfully shattered by ObamaCare and many more Trillions of dollars that will finish off what is left of your once a highly blessed country. That's your country's most serious problem right there.
Second, why didn't the poor Al Gore, who won most popular votes, become the 43rd US President, instead of George W Bush?
Third, have the American people known yet where Mr Obama was born, either in Hawaii or Kenya? So his presidential eligibility has not been officially established, as required by the US Constitution.
Finally, I think the American people deserve whatever calamity that's heading their way for forsaking their highest Law of the Land.
Thai people are trying to hang on to our highest Law of the Land, or what's left of it, the best we can.
You see, people are the same everywhere, no matters in America or Thailand. It's the same old human conflict between the Rules of Law vs Mob Rule or Liberty vs Tyranny. I hope you know what I mean.
It's always refreshing to hear a different point of view coming from outside. The imminent collapse of the US as one unified nation is "no joke" indeed.
Out of my curiosity, I hope you will be able to answer a few of my questions.
First, if Democracy is such a marvelous system of Govt as you said, how come your Founding Fathers didn't adopt it into the US Constitution? In fact, they did everything possible to limit its role to be well within the constitutional framework. In fact, they were heavily influenced by Alexander Tyler's "Death by Democracy." The US constitutional framework has been under attacked by liberal politicians for long time, but only sucessfully shattered by ObamaCare and many more Trillions of dollars that will finish off what is left of your once a highly blessed country. That's your country's most serious problem right there.
Second, why didn't the poor Al Gore, who won most popular votes, become the 43rd US President, instead of George W Bush?
Third, have the American people known yet where Mr Obama was born, either in Hawaii or Kenya? So his presidential eligibility has not been officially established, as required by the US Constitution.
Finally, I think the American people deserve whatever calamity that's heading their way for forsaking their highest Law of the Land.
Thai people are trying to hang on to our highest Law of the Land, or what's left of it, the best we can.
You see, people are the same everywhere, no matters in America or Thailand. It's the same old human conflict between the Rules of Law vs Mob Rule or Liberty vs Tyranny. I hope you know what I mean.
Comment 69
henri date : 07/04/2010 time : 11:29
Who is paying for the Peoples TV time.All day ,all night.?? In the USA politicians pay big money for just a few minutes.
Dont the red shirts have jobs? My employer would never consent to my being away from the job more than twenty days I would lose my job.
Dear henri #69:
That should tell you something about E-San's persistent high rate of poverty and unemployment.
Thaksin was rich enough to buy off nearly all E-San votes to put him well over the top with a crushing parliamentary majority when he made history in becoming the first Thai PM leading a single majority Govt.
Each Red Shirt protester earns at least 500 bahts a day on the streets of BKK. So protesting has become a lucrative profession for them, compared with being unemployed or underemployed back home in E-San.
I doubt that we can pass enough laws to make the Yellows, Greens and Blues to willingly reach out and give the Reds enough helping hands to try to lift themselves out of poverty.
It'll take nothing short of a miracle by the Love of God to make that a reality.
That should tell you something about E-San's persistent high rate of poverty and unemployment.
Thaksin was rich enough to buy off nearly all E-San votes to put him well over the top with a crushing parliamentary majority when he made history in becoming the first Thai PM leading a single majority Govt.
Each Red Shirt protester earns at least 500 bahts a day on the streets of BKK. So protesting has become a lucrative profession for them, compared with being unemployed or underemployed back home in E-San.
I doubt that we can pass enough laws to make the Yellows, Greens and Blues to willingly reach out and give the Reds enough helping hands to try to lift themselves out of poverty.
It'll take nothing short of a miracle by the Love of God to make that a reality.
Comment 71
kevin Dempsey date : 08/04/2010 time : 16:27
date : 08/04/2010 time : 16:27
Thank you Khun Sanitsuda for your balanced, rational analysis of the situation in Thailand at the moment. For too long Thailand or the Thais I should say, have been living in a dream world. It is time for them to look in the mirror and see the reality staring out at them. "The truth will set you free" and then you can finally grasp the meaning of democracy and justice. Yes a lot of work needs to be done to reform various powerful groups, the hi so who don't pay a just tax, the decadent Buddist clergy, the military and police elites who feel they are separate and not the servants of the people, the end of corruption at so many levels from the traffic cop taking a bribe to the rich businessman/politician skimming off the cream. Education is the only answer, a study of real history, logical thinking, political science or civics, the exposure of students to the real Thailand ,not the silly mindless game shows and soap operas of the media. There is not enough local politics or people taking contol of their own communities to effect change. We all want social justice for the poor, equal opportunities for education and access to health. Every country is still fighting for this even in America. But using people as pawns in a power struggle, filling their heads with hatred is not the solution. The law has to be respected. Those causing loss of earnings in their protests must be held to account and pay the bills.Who for example is paying for the clean up of the streets after the red shirts leave? Taksin should pay as he is the voice behind the mob. Pojamarn his wife or the powerful groups who are paying the red shirts everyday. These people have been playing with Thailand too long as if it were their private monoploy game. Who can begin this reform? Is there anyone out there? The silent majority will have to come out of the closet and stop living in Dreamworld. Thailand is no some TAT ad of exotic fruit and smiling rice harvesters! That myth has long faded in the outside world.
Comment 72
Victor date : 09/04/2010 time : 02:59
date : 09/04/2010 time : 02:59
As I've said many times before and I'll say it again....
Democracy will not work if the people are uneducated;
and that education cannot be realized when the people are still going to bed hungry.
It is a shame that most Thais missed the chance to move forward to gain such stature during the last few decades because they prefer to be hand-fed by the privilege few and therefore lacking the initiative to take charge of their own lives.
And this is why democracy in Thailand is just a form that is not functioning as it should have been.
Just to put it in a proper perspective, Thai democracy is similar to all those new sidewalks in Bangkok....nice to look at for a while, but, after a single rainy season, will start to sink due to the weak and uncompacted foundation. And no amount of repair work will be possible except to start the whole process all over again.
The question is who will dare to do it?
Democracy will not work if the people are uneducated;
and that education cannot be realized when the people are still going to bed hungry.
It is a shame that most Thais missed the chance to move forward to gain such stature during the last few decades because they prefer to be hand-fed by the privilege few and therefore lacking the initiative to take charge of their own lives.
And this is why democracy in Thailand is just a form that is not functioning as it should have been.
Just to put it in a proper perspective, Thai democracy is similar to all those new sidewalks in Bangkok....nice to look at for a while, but, after a single rainy season, will start to sink due to the weak and uncompacted foundation. And no amount of repair work will be possible except to start the whole process all over again.
The question is who will dare to do it?
Dear kevin #71 & Victor #72, the Greeks invented Democracy and the Brits later perfected it by inventing a position of the Prime Minister.
Greece is going through its worst social upheaval right now, triggered by its equally worst economic crisis. Greece is simply going bankrupt with enormously worsening national debt, sending the EU and the Euros into a tailspin.
The Sun already set long time ago over the British Empire, once it was forced to give up all of its colonies. England, today, is a dying nation socially and economically, and that explains why so many Brits came to live in Thailand, a Third World country.
So with one of the two "Inventors" of Democracy is going broke, while the other is barely struggling by, what is the chance that a Third World country like Thailand can get it right? You have to be realistic here.
I would encourage both of you to read "Death by Democracy," by a Scottish Prof, named Alexander Tyler (1747-1813), and you will not be surprised at all of what is going on in Thailand, Greece, England, or most of Democracies around the world, right now. Prof Tyler was right on the money.
The American Founding Fathers were heavily influenced by Prof Tyler, and that's why they decided to ditch Democracy in favor of a Constitutional Republic as a form of Govt for their newly found nation. At least, that's what it was before Mr Obama's arrival to the White House.
The country that seems to be in the best shape right now, is People's Republic of China, which is anything but a Democracy. So, that's something to think about.
Greece is going through its worst social upheaval right now, triggered by its equally worst economic crisis. Greece is simply going bankrupt with enormously worsening national debt, sending the EU and the Euros into a tailspin.
The Sun already set long time ago over the British Empire, once it was forced to give up all of its colonies. England, today, is a dying nation socially and economically, and that explains why so many Brits came to live in Thailand, a Third World country.
So with one of the two "Inventors" of Democracy is going broke, while the other is barely struggling by, what is the chance that a Third World country like Thailand can get it right? You have to be realistic here.
I would encourage both of you to read "Death by Democracy," by a Scottish Prof, named Alexander Tyler (1747-1813), and you will not be surprised at all of what is going on in Thailand, Greece, England, or most of Democracies around the world, right now. Prof Tyler was right on the money.
The American Founding Fathers were heavily influenced by Prof Tyler, and that's why they decided to ditch Democracy in favor of a Constitutional Republic as a form of Govt for their newly found nation. At least, that's what it was before Mr Obama's arrival to the White House.
The country that seems to be in the best shape right now, is People's Republic of China, which is anything but a Democracy. So, that's something to think about.
Comment 74
KT date : 13/04/2010 time : 22:47
date : 13/04/2010 time : 22:47
I would like to share some of my own opinion about Thai politics.
As a Thai by birth, had a good education in my hometown province and into Bangkok school/college. Worked with Thai companies and foreign companies as a part of my education whiled studied in Bangkok. Had a chance to travel overseas and had seen things especailly lifestyle, work, etc.
Anyhow, I do not know for sure that who is the best person to govern Thailand, as far as I could recall back, that time would be Mr.Anand (forgot his last name), some said he was the good one, economy was good, then Mr.Chaun Leekpai was next or before as I did not know for sure, and then whoever got elected after that, so on. I personally did not pay much attention about politics any more.
As myself worked like everyone else daily in Bangkok, tried to make a living and now living overseas. I would say a simple Thai person do prefer that it will be nice to have someone who is really put the country first NOT himself first, and follow the King's speech when sworn in to become Thai Priminister and do his best duty for the country and last is for his families.
Myself or even some Thais would think like to have Thai monachy govern the country but The King wants Thais people to learn how to manage it. So far, I could not see who is the best person to do it. Anyhow, GREED, SELFISH, CORRUPTIONS are the big objects and still is, also controlled by whoever got the power which is truly sad to see this crisis happened again.
I am pround to be born in Thailand. With this mess caused by some Thais protesters. It makes Thailand look bad especially for Thais, Thai economy is slumped by these protesters whoever or wherever you are. You all can stop doing this and make Thailand is a land of smiles like we always have a nice slogan. I know it would be easy to say but some of us has a good heart to make a change and be the better person, do good for yourself, for the country and for the King and monarchy.
I always give the best words for tourists, friends and foreigners to visit Thailand when they have a break from work and have some spare money to travel overseas. Remember on thing, Thailand has a treaty with an International countries, it is all connected to trade some goods from Thailand and to other countries. Please be nice, don't be greedy and act like a thief.
We all work hard but a simple thing like the King has said, will take all of us and bring a good way in life no matter how much or how little you have earned in your life.
However, it is really depressed to see the bad situation back home on the news, TV and wonder what went wrong with some Thai people! I would like to say this, some of you had a good education, but please use it in the correct way, stop being stupid and ridiculous. And make Thailand the best country for Thai like myself, Thais back home and tosome now are living overseas for further education or workforce and last for the Thai monarchy.
I do really appreciated.
As a Thai by birth, had a good education in my hometown province and into Bangkok school/college. Worked with Thai companies and foreign companies as a part of my education whiled studied in Bangkok. Had a chance to travel overseas and had seen things especailly lifestyle, work, etc.
Anyhow, I do not know for sure that who is the best person to govern Thailand, as far as I could recall back, that time would be Mr.Anand (forgot his last name), some said he was the good one, economy was good, then Mr.Chaun Leekpai was next or before as I did not know for sure, and then whoever got elected after that, so on. I personally did not pay much attention about politics any more.
As myself worked like everyone else daily in Bangkok, tried to make a living and now living overseas. I would say a simple Thai person do prefer that it will be nice to have someone who is really put the country first NOT himself first, and follow the King's speech when sworn in to become Thai Priminister and do his best duty for the country and last is for his families.
Myself or even some Thais would think like to have Thai monachy govern the country but The King wants Thais people to learn how to manage it. So far, I could not see who is the best person to do it. Anyhow, GREED, SELFISH, CORRUPTIONS are the big objects and still is, also controlled by whoever got the power which is truly sad to see this crisis happened again.
I am pround to be born in Thailand. With this mess caused by some Thais protesters. It makes Thailand look bad especially for Thais, Thai economy is slumped by these protesters whoever or wherever you are. You all can stop doing this and make Thailand is a land of smiles like we always have a nice slogan. I know it would be easy to say but some of us has a good heart to make a change and be the better person, do good for yourself, for the country and for the King and monarchy.
I always give the best words for tourists, friends and foreigners to visit Thailand when they have a break from work and have some spare money to travel overseas. Remember on thing, Thailand has a treaty with an International countries, it is all connected to trade some goods from Thailand and to other countries. Please be nice, don't be greedy and act like a thief.
We all work hard but a simple thing like the King has said, will take all of us and bring a good way in life no matter how much or how little you have earned in your life.
However, it is really depressed to see the bad situation back home on the news, TV and wonder what went wrong with some Thai people! I would like to say this, some of you had a good education, but please use it in the correct way, stop being stupid and ridiculous. And make Thailand the best country for Thai like myself, Thais back home and tosome now are living overseas for further education or workforce and last for the Thai monarchy.
I do really appreciated.
Comment 75
shame date : 14/04/2010 time : 12:16
date : 14/04/2010 time : 12:16
Some of the young red protesters are now educated and have degrees and are there doing the protest thing as they believe Thailand has to change to go forward.
Its not all about Thaksin, as the government tries to make all believe.
It will take time but gradually the youth will become educated and hopefully things will change in Thailand.
In the meantime life will go one sad as it needs change now for the youth growing up. Thailands future
Its not all about Thaksin, as the government tries to make all believe.
It will take time but gradually the youth will become educated and hopefully things will change in Thailand.
In the meantime life will go one sad as it needs change now for the youth growing up. Thailands future
It's a real mystery to me why it has been so hard to develop E-San, after trillions of bahts from governments after governments, including 4 full years of Thaksin's, and E-San people are still the least informed, educated, and the poorest in Thailand.
I think something is seriously wrong here.
I think something is seriously wrong here.
Comment 77
Victor date : 19/04/2010 time : 02:34
date : 19/04/2010 time : 02:34
Spiceman raised a very important question about why people in E-san still lack behind those from other parts of the country. Here are some of my thought....
1. The food. Hence, below average IQ. This doesn't mean that 'average' Thais has high IQ. On the contrary, actually.
2. Poor education system. Nowaday, only the near-stupid wanted to be a teacher. This situation is getting worse because some of the near-stupid have moved on to be politicians.
3. The elite few also play a very important part in keeping them as is. No need to fish because they can get the fish from the elite.
The current situation stem from the fact that there are now 2 sources to be picked from and, unless you are blind or are really really stupid, the bigger fish will get your soul.
1. The food. Hence, below average IQ. This doesn't mean that 'average' Thais has high IQ. On the contrary, actually.
2. Poor education system. Nowaday, only the near-stupid wanted to be a teacher. This situation is getting worse because some of the near-stupid have moved on to be politicians.
3. The elite few also play a very important part in keeping them as is. No need to fish because they can get the fish from the elite.
The current situation stem from the fact that there are now 2 sources to be picked from and, unless you are blind or are really really stupid, the bigger fish will get your soul.
Dear Victor:
I agree with you that poor nutrition may negatively affect intelligent level, especially, during early childhood.
However, I disagree with you that average Thai persons have low IQ. I consider myself just an "average" Thai person, who is fortunate enough to have access to high-quality education in the US, which fosters a healthy habit of continually learning in the effort of seeking the truth.
I have no doubts at all that any average Thai persons, given an opportunity that I had, will do equally well, if not better.
I completely agree with you about the poor educaton system in Thailand. You hit the nail right on the head, in citing poor quality teachers as a main culprit.
It's interesting to know that primary teachers' salaries in Japan are among the highest, implying heavy emphasis on early education, where educational investment yields the highest return.
Well, teachers in general, esp, primary teachers in Thailand, are at the bottom in term of salaries.
Can stupid teachers put out smart students? I guess not. It's kind of "garbage-in-garbage-out," I suppose.
God helps us all with those "near stupid" teachers turning politicians!
I agree with you that poor nutrition may negatively affect intelligent level, especially, during early childhood.
However, I disagree with you that average Thai persons have low IQ. I consider myself just an "average" Thai person, who is fortunate enough to have access to high-quality education in the US, which fosters a healthy habit of continually learning in the effort of seeking the truth.
I have no doubts at all that any average Thai persons, given an opportunity that I had, will do equally well, if not better.
I completely agree with you about the poor educaton system in Thailand. You hit the nail right on the head, in citing poor quality teachers as a main culprit.
It's interesting to know that primary teachers' salaries in Japan are among the highest, implying heavy emphasis on early education, where educational investment yields the highest return.
Well, teachers in general, esp, primary teachers in Thailand, are at the bottom in term of salaries.
Can stupid teachers put out smart students? I guess not. It's kind of "garbage-in-garbage-out," I suppose.
God helps us all with those "near stupid" teachers turning politicians!
Comment 79
Victor date : 20/04/2010 time : 04:08
date : 20/04/2010 time : 04:08
Sorry, Spiceman, I meant to say that the IQ/EQ of average Thai school children, according to one study, is lower than it used to be when you and I were young(er).
Your mentioning of the very low salary of primary school teacher here is quite correct and should apply to neary all other professions, even including my very own engineering.
Can you imagine what will our society be if we pay a police private, the first rung in our judicial system, a little more reasonable salary so that they don't have to go looking for other means?
Your mentioning of the very low salary of primary school teacher here is quite correct and should apply to neary all other professions, even including my very own engineering.
Can you imagine what will our society be if we pay a police private, the first rung in our judicial system, a little more reasonable salary so that they don't have to go looking for other means?
Comment 80
Michael date : 20/04/2010 time : 06:33
date : 20/04/2010 time : 06:33
Democracy and rule of law, I had never thought of them as being mutually exclusive. I truley believe in both. I believe sovereignty comes from the people, who's will is manifested through elections. The,"legally elected", represenatives of the people then draw up a charter,i.e a constitution. It is by the laws of a constitution, that has been written by "legally elected" represenatives of the people .that not only give a nations laws substance,and power.but moral legitimacy as well.
I have seen where several authors here have pointed to political or self interest as though they were a terrible vices. Thay are a part of human nature. That is why I think it is wise to have power equally distributed among the legislative, judicial, and executive branches of goverment. So human character is basically flawed,so laws must be passed to protect us from ourselves.
I don't think Khun Taksin will ever come back as PM
again,but he may be back someday or maybe not, but he will continue to be an influence on Thai politic for some time to come. Because the elites had to bring in the army and thereby turn a"slick operator" into a martyre. If left to serv his term, he would either have been dealt with legally by judiciary or he would have served out his term and the masses would have been long bored with him. History is full of charaters like Taksin, and so are auto showrooms,and used car lots,and land scheme development offices. He was well into the process of self destruction until, until the the pad and the army gave him a new lease on life.
I will close with this quote from a famous justice,. "Justice Delayed is Justice Denied" and Thailands rurual poor have just figured it out,and are becomming impatient.
I have seen where several authors here have pointed to political or self interest as though they were a terrible vices. Thay are a part of human nature. That is why I think it is wise to have power equally distributed among the legislative, judicial, and executive branches of goverment. So human character is basically flawed,so laws must be passed to protect us from ourselves.
I don't think Khun Taksin will ever come back as PM
again,but he may be back someday or maybe not, but he will continue to be an influence on Thai politic for some time to come. Because the elites had to bring in the army and thereby turn a"slick operator" into a martyre. If left to serv his term, he would either have been dealt with legally by judiciary or he would have served out his term and the masses would have been long bored with him. History is full of charaters like Taksin, and so are auto showrooms,and used car lots,and land scheme development offices. He was well into the process of self destruction until, until the the pad and the army gave him a new lease on life.
I will close with this quote from a famous justice,. "Justice Delayed is Justice Denied" and Thailands rurual poor have just figured it out,and are becomming impatient.
Michael #80:
The Greeks invented Parliamentary Democracy, and the British perfected it by adding a position of the Prime Minister.
Greece is in the worst ever social unrest triggered by the equally worst economic crisis. Greece is simply bankrupt, sending the EU and the Euros into a tailspin.
England is a dying nation, socially and economically, since it was forced to give up all of its natually rich colonies, following the end of WWII.
Most of the Democracies are either broke or about to go broke. So what makes you think that Democracy can save Thailand if we manage to miraculously smooth out the rift between the Reds and the rest of the Colors?
The country that is in the best shape right now is the People Republic of China, which is anything but a Democracy.
I would encourage you to read "Death by Democracy" by Prof Alexander Tyler (1747-1813), and his influence on the American Founding Fathers who ditched Democracy in favor of a Constitutional Republic as a form of their newly found nation just over 200 years ago.
Democracy is merely a form of Mob Rule which has the same tendency to run wildly outside the Rules of law, designed to contain it. The same thing is happening in the US, a titanic struggle between these two forces (Obama vs the US Constitution).
So sit back and enjoy the show!
The Greeks invented Parliamentary Democracy, and the British perfected it by adding a position of the Prime Minister.
Greece is in the worst ever social unrest triggered by the equally worst economic crisis. Greece is simply bankrupt, sending the EU and the Euros into a tailspin.
England is a dying nation, socially and economically, since it was forced to give up all of its natually rich colonies, following the end of WWII.
Most of the Democracies are either broke or about to go broke. So what makes you think that Democracy can save Thailand if we manage to miraculously smooth out the rift between the Reds and the rest of the Colors?
The country that is in the best shape right now is the People Republic of China, which is anything but a Democracy.
I would encourage you to read "Death by Democracy" by Prof Alexander Tyler (1747-1813), and his influence on the American Founding Fathers who ditched Democracy in favor of a Constitutional Republic as a form of their newly found nation just over 200 years ago.
Democracy is merely a form of Mob Rule which has the same tendency to run wildly outside the Rules of law, designed to contain it. The same thing is happening in the US, a titanic struggle between these two forces (Obama vs the US Constitution).
So sit back and enjoy the show!
Comment 82
Mike date : 20/04/2010 time : 13:28
date : 20/04/2010 time : 13:28
I have agree with Spiceman, that most of us that are comunicating in the medium, and in English, make us all members of pretty exclusive club of fortunate people. That being said, I think we should not being applying purjorative terms and colorful explitives to people or groups that have not been as fortunate as us.
That being said, I remember some readings in Thai history before comming here, King Rama V noted the problem,of an illiterate population in his discussions about preparation of the Thai people for a constitutional monarchy at some future time.
Well the future is here, and the toiling masses are still not prepared for it.. Why? We cannot rely blame or label as stupid the under educated, unprepared, underpaid rural school teacher. The educated elite has been in charge of the education system since the kingdom had one. The training of teachers, the books, all of it.. To put the blame at the bottom of the chain of command is comtemptable.
I have spent enough time up country to know that curriculum is stuctured to train kids to be subsistance famers. This is dangerous. their is not much room in a modern economy for someone farming 6 rai or so. The when countries like Thailand could market them selves to investors because of cheap labor are rapidly commming to an end. Future production is going to be very high tech and the jobs that are procuced going to be smart jobs.
Education and self governance are inextricably intertwinned. Movements like the Jocobins,bolshiviks,nazies,red guard, khamer rouge, all came about as a result of societies with lots of poor people, who couldn't ,or wouldn't govern themselves.
That being said, I remember some readings in Thai history before comming here, King Rama V noted the problem,of an illiterate population in his discussions about preparation of the Thai people for a constitutional monarchy at some future time.
Well the future is here, and the toiling masses are still not prepared for it.. Why? We cannot rely blame or label as stupid the under educated, unprepared, underpaid rural school teacher. The educated elite has been in charge of the education system since the kingdom had one. The training of teachers, the books, all of it.. To put the blame at the bottom of the chain of command is comtemptable.
I have spent enough time up country to know that curriculum is stuctured to train kids to be subsistance famers. This is dangerous. their is not much room in a modern economy for someone farming 6 rai or so. The when countries like Thailand could market them selves to investors because of cheap labor are rapidly commming to an end. Future production is going to be very high tech and the jobs that are procuced going to be smart jobs.
Education and self governance are inextricably intertwinned. Movements like the Jocobins,bolshiviks,nazies,red guard, khamer rouge, all came about as a result of societies with lots of poor people, who couldn't ,or wouldn't govern themselves.
Dear Mike #82:
The goal of any countries is to find a way to allocate its limited national resouces in the most efficient and ethical way possible. In short, how to reach a acceptable balance between human's infinite demand for and the finite supply of goods & services.
Is Democracy the only way to achieve that goal? Will the perfect system of Govt in the world (if ther is one) work with severely imperfect human beings like us? I think not.
As it becomes more and more apparently clear in the most painful way, that Democracy is not possible without a good set of the Rules of Law, that designed to bring out the best of humanity, of hard work, and private charity.
I would wait and see how the constitutional crisis in the US plays itself out (Obama vs the US Constitution).
If the US Constitution prevails, I would seriously consider adopting a system of American style constitutional republic for Thailand, where the right of individual citizens, and that of the Govt are spelled out, without the two overlapping or coming into conflict with one another.
However, if Obama prevails, may God have mercy on us all!
The goal of any countries is to find a way to allocate its limited national resouces in the most efficient and ethical way possible. In short, how to reach a acceptable balance between human's infinite demand for and the finite supply of goods & services.
Is Democracy the only way to achieve that goal? Will the perfect system of Govt in the world (if ther is one) work with severely imperfect human beings like us? I think not.
As it becomes more and more apparently clear in the most painful way, that Democracy is not possible without a good set of the Rules of Law, that designed to bring out the best of humanity, of hard work, and private charity.
I would wait and see how the constitutional crisis in the US plays itself out (Obama vs the US Constitution).
If the US Constitution prevails, I would seriously consider adopting a system of American style constitutional republic for Thailand, where the right of individual citizens, and that of the Govt are spelled out, without the two overlapping or coming into conflict with one another.
However, if Obama prevails, may God have mercy on us all!
Comment 84
Victor date : 21/04/2010 time : 02:03
date : 21/04/2010 time : 02:03
When I was still a school boy all I heard was that democracy is the utopia and that communism is its number one enemy. It wasn't until I had a chance, at 17 yr-old, to be in the US, the number one democratic country of the world, that I began to have some doubt that, in the real world, maybe not all men are created equal as stated in the American constitution. The situation facing us here just confirm that.
As I said so many times before, our democracy can be compared to that of the new sidewalk all over Bangkok....good form but not very durable in its function.
The process of building up a good sidewalk starts from choosing the right material with good quality for the foundation, compact it well, then cover it with durable surface.
And we all know about Bangkok sidewalk even without the helping hands of the red shirts!
As I said so many times before, our democracy can be compared to that of the new sidewalk all over Bangkok....good form but not very durable in its function.
The process of building up a good sidewalk starts from choosing the right material with good quality for the foundation, compact it well, then cover it with durable surface.
And we all know about Bangkok sidewalk even without the helping hands of the red shirts!
Dear Victor #84:
The US use to be the Land of Oppurtunity, for new immigrants arriving from all over the world, as long as, the US Constitution, which acknowledged God's existence and His unalieanable rights, was being upheld.
However, the erosion of the US Constitution have caused the US to fall from grace. The election of Obama only confirmed this destructive trend.
Going back to "Death by Democracy," Prof Tyler predicted this pivotal moment in any Democracies, including the US over 200 years ago.
More than half of Americans pay little or no income tax at all, and they were the ones who sent Mr Obama to the White House. And they are counting on him to deliver on his promise of even more freebies, at the expense of those who pay taxes.
It is the same old sad story between the "have" and the "have not," everywhere in the world, including the US and Thailand.
The different is the political battle is limited to the realm of public arena of ideas and at the ballot boxes on election day in the US. In Thailand, everything goes, of course, regardless of the political Colors.
The US tax payers seem to be on a full-scale tax revolt against Mr Obama and his crowd. There are the "Tea Party" popping up all over the US, made up of both major political parties, who are trying to roll back their Govt, to be within the strict limits set by the US Constitution.
With roughly 80 millions gun owners and nearly 280 million guns in the US, it is a good thing that the Americans have leaned to settle their political differences at the ballot boxes, rather than on the streets, like what's happening in BKK right now.
After all, they already went through a bloody civil war, where nearly one million Americans on both sides were killed.
The US use to be the Land of Oppurtunity, for new immigrants arriving from all over the world, as long as, the US Constitution, which acknowledged God's existence and His unalieanable rights, was being upheld.
However, the erosion of the US Constitution have caused the US to fall from grace. The election of Obama only confirmed this destructive trend.
Going back to "Death by Democracy," Prof Tyler predicted this pivotal moment in any Democracies, including the US over 200 years ago.
More than half of Americans pay little or no income tax at all, and they were the ones who sent Mr Obama to the White House. And they are counting on him to deliver on his promise of even more freebies, at the expense of those who pay taxes.
It is the same old sad story between the "have" and the "have not," everywhere in the world, including the US and Thailand.
The different is the political battle is limited to the realm of public arena of ideas and at the ballot boxes on election day in the US. In Thailand, everything goes, of course, regardless of the political Colors.
The US tax payers seem to be on a full-scale tax revolt against Mr Obama and his crowd. There are the "Tea Party" popping up all over the US, made up of both major political parties, who are trying to roll back their Govt, to be within the strict limits set by the US Constitution.
With roughly 80 millions gun owners and nearly 280 million guns in the US, it is a good thing that the Americans have leaned to settle their political differences at the ballot boxes, rather than on the streets, like what's happening in BKK right now.
After all, they already went through a bloody civil war, where nearly one million Americans on both sides were killed.
Dear Spiceman #68:
Those who don't read carefully often comment inappropriately.
You may think that the US will collapse as a unified nation; I meant that the US is politically polarized.
You say you ask a few questions out of curiosity. Given the tone of whay you wrote, this does not sound sincere to me.
No where in my comments did I say “Democracy is such a marvelous system of Govt”. Yes, it is true that the US doesn’t have the “pure” form of democracy that the slave-owning Greeks had. If we want to be more exact, it's called representative democracy; but it’s not even that, anymore, if representative is to mean representative of the people’s, not special, financial, interests’ desires.
You reveal a strong bias when you accuse only liberals of attacking the US’ constitutional framework. I could give you a good number of specific examples of conservative attacks. And I question your sources of information if you think that the health insurance reform bill recently passed is somehow against the constitution, which itself was written by slave holders who thought only men who owned property should be allowed to vote and that women should have no right to vote at all. Societies change. (Some) People evolve.
The cost of health care as it stood could have bankrupted the US. It still may since the for-profit insurance companies have been left in power.
Thugs in Florida demanded that there be no recounting of the votes in the Gore-Bush presidential race. I don’t believe the Supreme Court had the right to make the decision they made. It was the founding fathers of the US you so admire (?) who decided they did not trust presidential elections to popular vote.
That Obama was born a US citizen has been accepted by all who are willing to look at the evidence.
American may deserve whatever calamities are headed its way, but probably not for the reasons you think.
I agree that people are the same all over the world.
“Mob rule” is what the British accused the colonial Americans of when they defied the British rule of law. Unjust laws need changing and are a form of tyranny themselves.
Even I, an “arrogant” American”, would never be so arrogant as to tell a Thai person what would or wouldn’t destroy his or her country the way you have told me what would destroy America. Fortunately, given the sources of infomation you appear to go to, I’m not too worried about your opinion.
Those who don't read carefully often comment inappropriately.
You may think that the US will collapse as a unified nation; I meant that the US is politically polarized.
You say you ask a few questions out of curiosity. Given the tone of whay you wrote, this does not sound sincere to me.
No where in my comments did I say “Democracy is such a marvelous system of Govt”. Yes, it is true that the US doesn’t have the “pure” form of democracy that the slave-owning Greeks had. If we want to be more exact, it's called representative democracy; but it’s not even that, anymore, if representative is to mean representative of the people’s, not special, financial, interests’ desires.
You reveal a strong bias when you accuse only liberals of attacking the US’ constitutional framework. I could give you a good number of specific examples of conservative attacks. And I question your sources of information if you think that the health insurance reform bill recently passed is somehow against the constitution, which itself was written by slave holders who thought only men who owned property should be allowed to vote and that women should have no right to vote at all. Societies change. (Some) People evolve.
The cost of health care as it stood could have bankrupted the US. It still may since the for-profit insurance companies have been left in power.
Thugs in Florida demanded that there be no recounting of the votes in the Gore-Bush presidential race. I don’t believe the Supreme Court had the right to make the decision they made. It was the founding fathers of the US you so admire (?) who decided they did not trust presidential elections to popular vote.
That Obama was born a US citizen has been accepted by all who are willing to look at the evidence.
American may deserve whatever calamities are headed its way, but probably not for the reasons you think.
I agree that people are the same all over the world.
“Mob rule” is what the British accused the colonial Americans of when they defied the British rule of law. Unjust laws need changing and are a form of tyranny themselves.
Even I, an “arrogant” American”, would never be so arrogant as to tell a Thai person what would or wouldn’t destroy his or her country the way you have told me what would destroy America. Fortunately, given the sources of infomation you appear to go to, I’m not too worried about your opinion.
Dear Celine #86:
It's look like the Tea Parties' tax revolts are in full swing right now all over the US. And with the Liberal Dems dropping out like flies, not to mention Obama's approval rating dropping like a brick down to 47% now, the Tea Party people are gaining an upper hand in their attempt to roll back their Govt to live within the limits set by the US Constitution, including repealing or unfunding ObamaCare.
Well, I'm still curious about how liberal Americans are able to ruin the once such a maginficent and highly blessed country this badly, $14 trillion debt + $1 trillion per year deficit. It's no secret that your country is going broke soon.
I thought the US is a Representative Republic, governed stictly by the Rules of Law, aka, the US Constitution. However, if it is a "Representative Democracy" as you suggested, what is it based on? Is it the founding principles of certain God's given unalienable rights or the will of the majority?
As you well know, 51% of the voters can do anything in a Democracy, including rewriting laws or the constitution the way that pleases them. As I understand it, the "certain God's given unalienable rights" can't be changed no matter how big is the majority. If not Life, then what? Death? If not Liberty, is it Tyranny? If not pursuit of happiness, is it unhappiness? If not equal justice for all, is it justice for a selected few? Kind of going insane, ha?
I believe that is what makes the US Constitution so unique, as it has provided such stability, necessary for unprecedented prosperity for American people over 200 years, until Mr. Obama shows up at the White House, of course.
Please, give me examples of conservative attacks on the US Constitution. I love to learn more about your country, which is sadly in a steep decline right now, so hopefully, Thai people can learn a thing or two, not to repeat the same mistakes themselves.
I'm talking specifically about the individual mandate. Can you point out to me where it is in the US Constitution that allow the Govt to force the US citizens to buy something they don't want to buy, aka, Govt approved health insurance or pay hefty fine or going to jail?
Is it within the right of the US citizens not to buy any health insurance at all, if they choose to? So much for liberty, ha?
Last time I check, the profit margin of those evil health insurance companies is a mere 4%, which is enough to run the whole US healthcare system for about 72 hrs. So they're not the problem, OK?
The problem with the US healthcare system is abusive and excessive medical lawsuits. Doctors are forced to practice defensive medicine, wasting precious medical resources, which keeps driving up cost,just to get the bloodsucking lawyers off their backs.
I have a cousin practicing medicine in the US, so I know a thing or two about it from the medical professional's perspective. His liability insurance premium is INSANE, and not because of the insurance companies, but those bloodsucking lawyers.
You may notice that ObamaCare did nothing on medical tort reform. Don't you want to know why?
Even without ObamaCare, it is unlikely tha the US can even try to get rid of the $1 trillion annual deficit, not to mention the $14 trillions outstanding debt.
So can you explain to me how your country went from the world's largest creditor to become the world's largest debtor within a few decade? Beat me!
The US Supreme Court was forced to stop the Florida's Democrat controlled "Kangaroo Court" Supreme Court from breaking its own law, as well as, the US Constitution.
The Florida's election law at that time called for one count and one recount if the winning margin was within 1% of the votes. The Florida's "Kangaroo Court" Supreme Court wanted to keep recounting the votes, making up new laws in the process, in order to accomodate their poor Al Gore. The court is not a legislative body, therefore, can't legislate from the bench. Otherwise, what's the need for the real legislative bodies like State House of Representative and Senate, right?
Well, do you know why your Founding Fathers came up with the Electoral College system? (This would be a sweet music to the ears of the Red Shirts in Thailand for sure).
Last time I check, Obama has spent close to $1 million in legal fees, in order to prevent anybody from digging up his birth certificate. So, if he was born in Hawaii as claimed, why didn't he just show it, to get it over with, instead of paying expensive legal fees to keep it under wrap? McCain showed his during the election, didn't he? Today, Arizona's passed a law to inspect Obama's birth certificate, if he wants to be on Arizona's ballot in 2012. So things are getting complicated constitutionally. As I said, it's so easy just to show the darn thing and to get if over with.
Can you give me a few examples of "unjust laws" that need changing? Does your Constitution allow this change through amendment process, through an Constitutional Convention?
If there is the right way to do it, why do you want to do it the wrong way, through the backdoor just as Obama is doing now?
Did you know that Thailand once had slaves? However, our king was able to peacefully abolish slavery with one royal decree. He said it, and it was done.
In your country, it's quite messy, as nearly one million White Americans were killed in the American Civil War, in order to set black slaves free. That was something, really.
About the issue of allowing the women to vote in the US, would you like to have the first female US President in the White House in 2012? That would be really something too.
I have a substantial investment in the US, besides a vacation home there, so I continue to follow closely on how things are going in your country, in case I need to make a quick important decision.
Please, accept my sincere apology if any of my comments offended you in any ways, shapes, matters or forms.
It's look like the Tea Parties' tax revolts are in full swing right now all over the US. And with the Liberal Dems dropping out like flies, not to mention Obama's approval rating dropping like a brick down to 47% now, the Tea Party people are gaining an upper hand in their attempt to roll back their Govt to live within the limits set by the US Constitution, including repealing or unfunding ObamaCare.
Well, I'm still curious about how liberal Americans are able to ruin the once such a maginficent and highly blessed country this badly, $14 trillion debt + $1 trillion per year deficit. It's no secret that your country is going broke soon.
I thought the US is a Representative Republic, governed stictly by the Rules of Law, aka, the US Constitution. However, if it is a "Representative Democracy" as you suggested, what is it based on? Is it the founding principles of certain God's given unalienable rights or the will of the majority?
As you well know, 51% of the voters can do anything in a Democracy, including rewriting laws or the constitution the way that pleases them. As I understand it, the "certain God's given unalienable rights" can't be changed no matter how big is the majority. If not Life, then what? Death? If not Liberty, is it Tyranny? If not pursuit of happiness, is it unhappiness? If not equal justice for all, is it justice for a selected few? Kind of going insane, ha?
I believe that is what makes the US Constitution so unique, as it has provided such stability, necessary for unprecedented prosperity for American people over 200 years, until Mr. Obama shows up at the White House, of course.
Please, give me examples of conservative attacks on the US Constitution. I love to learn more about your country, which is sadly in a steep decline right now, so hopefully, Thai people can learn a thing or two, not to repeat the same mistakes themselves.
I'm talking specifically about the individual mandate. Can you point out to me where it is in the US Constitution that allow the Govt to force the US citizens to buy something they don't want to buy, aka, Govt approved health insurance or pay hefty fine or going to jail?
Is it within the right of the US citizens not to buy any health insurance at all, if they choose to? So much for liberty, ha?
Last time I check, the profit margin of those evil health insurance companies is a mere 4%, which is enough to run the whole US healthcare system for about 72 hrs. So they're not the problem, OK?
The problem with the US healthcare system is abusive and excessive medical lawsuits. Doctors are forced to practice defensive medicine, wasting precious medical resources, which keeps driving up cost,just to get the bloodsucking lawyers off their backs.
I have a cousin practicing medicine in the US, so I know a thing or two about it from the medical professional's perspective. His liability insurance premium is INSANE, and not because of the insurance companies, but those bloodsucking lawyers.
You may notice that ObamaCare did nothing on medical tort reform. Don't you want to know why?
Even without ObamaCare, it is unlikely tha the US can even try to get rid of the $1 trillion annual deficit, not to mention the $14 trillions outstanding debt.
So can you explain to me how your country went from the world's largest creditor to become the world's largest debtor within a few decade? Beat me!
The US Supreme Court was forced to stop the Florida's Democrat controlled "Kangaroo Court" Supreme Court from breaking its own law, as well as, the US Constitution.
The Florida's election law at that time called for one count and one recount if the winning margin was within 1% of the votes. The Florida's "Kangaroo Court" Supreme Court wanted to keep recounting the votes, making up new laws in the process, in order to accomodate their poor Al Gore. The court is not a legislative body, therefore, can't legislate from the bench. Otherwise, what's the need for the real legislative bodies like State House of Representative and Senate, right?
Well, do you know why your Founding Fathers came up with the Electoral College system? (This would be a sweet music to the ears of the Red Shirts in Thailand for sure).
Last time I check, Obama has spent close to $1 million in legal fees, in order to prevent anybody from digging up his birth certificate. So, if he was born in Hawaii as claimed, why didn't he just show it, to get it over with, instead of paying expensive legal fees to keep it under wrap? McCain showed his during the election, didn't he? Today, Arizona's passed a law to inspect Obama's birth certificate, if he wants to be on Arizona's ballot in 2012. So things are getting complicated constitutionally. As I said, it's so easy just to show the darn thing and to get if over with.
Can you give me a few examples of "unjust laws" that need changing? Does your Constitution allow this change through amendment process, through an Constitutional Convention?
If there is the right way to do it, why do you want to do it the wrong way, through the backdoor just as Obama is doing now?
Did you know that Thailand once had slaves? However, our king was able to peacefully abolish slavery with one royal decree. He said it, and it was done.
In your country, it's quite messy, as nearly one million White Americans were killed in the American Civil War, in order to set black slaves free. That was something, really.
About the issue of allowing the women to vote in the US, would you like to have the first female US President in the White House in 2012? That would be really something too.
I have a substantial investment in the US, besides a vacation home there, so I continue to follow closely on how things are going in your country, in case I need to make a quick important decision.
Please, accept my sincere apology if any of my comments offended you in any ways, shapes, matters or forms.
Comment 89
thairunner date : 22/04/2010 time : 09:17
date : 22/04/2010 time : 09:17
It seems difficult to understand how a group that uses the word Democracy in their name has resulted to Anarchy to get things changed. In Democracy you vote the people out of office not threaten the whole country and the people living there. I think that UDD should reaed the definition of Democracy and try to use what it says and what it really means.
What a setup for an illegitimate government to seize all power usually held as sacred trust for the people and then demand that so-called troublemakers cease and desist all efforts to stop the injustice and bring back democracy.
Today's episode with the hospital administration removing all patients and refusal to treat any person applying for medical assistance is a true example of dictatorship at work.
There was absolutely no reason for this hospital to take such drastic action other than to attack the red-shirt effort to bring back democracy to Thailand. Even with some red shirt participants insisting on their right to search the hospital grounds for police or soldiers stationed there, that search could have been completed quickly and peacefully.
Instead, the hospital administrators endangered the lives of its patients and caused needles pain and humiliation to countless residents of Bangkok simply to bring condemnation down upon the heads of the red-shirt demonstrators.
What a disgraceful performance!
Today's episode with the hospital administration removing all patients and refusal to treat any person applying for medical assistance is a true example of dictatorship at work.
There was absolutely no reason for this hospital to take such drastic action other than to attack the red-shirt effort to bring back democracy to Thailand. Even with some red shirt participants insisting on their right to search the hospital grounds for police or soldiers stationed there, that search could have been completed quickly and peacefully.
Instead, the hospital administrators endangered the lives of its patients and caused needles pain and humiliation to countless residents of Bangkok simply to bring condemnation down upon the heads of the red-shirt demonstrators.
What a disgraceful performance!
Comment 91
Den date : 30/04/2010 time : 16:56
You cannot expect to have law and order today when the authorities stood by and did nothing when the Yellows occupied the airports.
The law is the law. Once one is seen to break it, all credibility has been lost.
The law is the law. Once one is seen to break it, all credibility has been lost.
Comment 92
jeanette smith date : 30/04/2010 time : 23:52
date : 30/04/2010 time : 23:52
My husband and I were very much looking forward to 3 weeks in Thailand to see your beautiful country. Now that our Foreign Office (UK) has told us not to travel to Thailand because of the unrest we are very disappointed and plan to visit another country.
Also our budget of £4000+ would have gone a long way to helping Thai businesses along with the spending power of other tourists. I have sympathy for the Thais who are downtrodden and want democracy and our 'holiday' is not important when you consider the living conditions of your nationals. But I fear that the Thai economy will suffer during this present strife. One can only hope that the situation is resolved in the best way possible for the Thai people, sooner, rather than later. I wish you all well - and eventually - peace.
Also our budget of £4000+ would have gone a long way to helping Thai businesses along with the spending power of other tourists. I have sympathy for the Thais who are downtrodden and want democracy and our 'holiday' is not important when you consider the living conditions of your nationals. But I fear that the Thai economy will suffer during this present strife. One can only hope that the situation is resolved in the best way possible for the Thai people, sooner, rather than later. I wish you all well - and eventually - peace.
Comment 93
Ludacris date : 02/05/2010 time : 14:33
To Spiceman and Victor. Democracy is always a better alternative than dictatorship. If you beleive anything else there must be something terribly wrong with you. Are you really sure that your IQ-level is higher then arverage people in Isaan? After reading your opinions I´m convinced that the Red Shirts are doing what is necessary to change things around in Thailand.
Dear Lucacris #93:
What on earth made you think I'm for dictatorship? And please, refrain from personal insults. My arguments are based on historical evidence, , well-proven theories, reason, and logic. I hope you will do the same. Let respect each other's freedom of speech.
I hope you have a chance to google "Death by Democracy" by Alexander Tyler. And how will you response to his accurate prediction of more than 200 years ago?
Are you aware of what's happening right now in Greece, the birthplace of Democracy?
Also how will you argue against the American Founding Fathers for not adopting Democracy for the US?
Dictatorship comes in may shapes and forms, including a parliamentary dictatorship under PM Thaksin Shinnawattra.
Do you honestly think there would be a coup if PM Thaiksin confronted many corruption allegations head-on against his Govt, instead of running away from them all the way to Europe and the US?
That's why I asked a question on how to ensure Majority Rule while respecting Minority's rights in Thailand. Unless, the Majority and Minority work together for the greater good of Thailand, there will never be peace, stability, and prosperity for all Thais.
Do you think average Americans have more liberty, freedom, prosperity, and equal protection of the law than any other people living under Democracy, and etc?
If so, how do you explain it, since the US is a Representative Republic, and not a Democracy?
I don't care whatever system Thailand will end up having, as long as, it stands for Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness, and Equal Justice for All.
I'm for Liberty but not tyranny PERIOD.
What on earth made you think I'm for dictatorship? And please, refrain from personal insults. My arguments are based on historical evidence, , well-proven theories, reason, and logic. I hope you will do the same. Let respect each other's freedom of speech.
I hope you have a chance to google "Death by Democracy" by Alexander Tyler. And how will you response to his accurate prediction of more than 200 years ago?
Are you aware of what's happening right now in Greece, the birthplace of Democracy?
Also how will you argue against the American Founding Fathers for not adopting Democracy for the US?
Dictatorship comes in may shapes and forms, including a parliamentary dictatorship under PM Thaksin Shinnawattra.
Do you honestly think there would be a coup if PM Thaiksin confronted many corruption allegations head-on against his Govt, instead of running away from them all the way to Europe and the US?
That's why I asked a question on how to ensure Majority Rule while respecting Minority's rights in Thailand. Unless, the Majority and Minority work together for the greater good of Thailand, there will never be peace, stability, and prosperity for all Thais.
Do you think average Americans have more liberty, freedom, prosperity, and equal protection of the law than any other people living under Democracy, and etc?
If so, how do you explain it, since the US is a Representative Republic, and not a Democracy?
I don't care whatever system Thailand will end up having, as long as, it stands for Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness, and Equal Justice for All.
I'm for Liberty but not tyranny PERIOD.
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- Entry: 107
It will be ended-up with gain or lose.
Repeatedly powering by Aninmals fight to eat and People fight to Money dealt.
If Thaksin is a poorman, everything Ok.
He's a multibillionaire same as a Tiger
likes to suck-blood, eat meat and chew bones. High Rankers like to take his Bank Accounts, Estate Fortune and Corporation shares. This was happening
since first day of "Meo Prime Minister"
By Wassanna: 'Who leaks who leads'
'Who fulls who loses'
We'll watch and learn by back-end.