It’s not the rich against the poor

[subzone]

Absolutely samuel

Could not agree you more.
Western media is being manipulated as much as the Thai media on this spin. The question: is it due to thier (Western media) quest for sensationalism, lower investigative skills of it's reporters these days, poor cross checking by editors or actual manipulation originating from people with vested interests in how the story is spun?

The truth - Thailands lower class are being used as pawns in this contest.

They will gain no benifit in the long run no matter how it ends up and infact may end up worse off.

[subzone]

I would also add..

Does a child know what is good for it?
A: No because it does not have enough understanding of the world, what is needed for their well being or the skills they need to survive - All they care about is that when they are hungry - they can eat, when they are cold - someone gives them a blanket etc. This is why adults must care for and raise children untill they have the same awareness and skills.

This is why an election is not the solution. Unfortunately the Poor thais who make up the majority vote are like children because of thier low to non existant education levels and lack of awareness of international trade, investment and policy effect on Thailand. They only see their immediate needs and cry for an Adult to sate them (In this case Taksin was smart enough to take advantage of that fact - As he built thier support by sating their short term needs). They do not understand that it takes time, planning and stability for Thailand as a whole to succeed and raise the living standards of all. All western nations generally know there is pain before growth as tough measures are put in place to seed development later however Thailands lower class only see tomorrow. So on that note it makes sense that the middle (yes there is one) and upper class of Thailand are the ones with the knowledge and skill to put in place a Government suitable to run Thailand but as a minority they are unable to.

An election would almost certainly see the current Government thrown out and Taksins Proxies running (Raping) the country again- Once more setting the clock back to zero. It may be undemocratic to say the educated minority should win in this case but in my mind democracy only works (as best it can) when all the voters are suitibly educated and aware of the bigger picture

In my opinion - This Taksin sponsered uprising needs to be quelled and yes with force if need be, so that the current government can do it's job without hinderance and actually allow Thailand to recover and progress. All Thai people will benifit from this in the long run.

[triptrip]

I would also add..

Does a child know what is good for it?
A: No because it does not have enough understanding of the world, what is needed for their well being or the skills they need to survive - All they care about is that when they are hungry - they can eat, when they are cold - someone gives them a blanket etc. This is why adults must care for and raise children untill they have the same awareness and skills.

This is why an election is not the solution. Unfortunately the Poor thais who make up the majority vote are like children because of thier low to non existant education levels and lack of awareness of international trade, investment and policy effect on Thailand. They only see their immediate needs and cry for an Adult to sate them (In this case Taksin was smart enough to take advantage of that fact - As he built thier support by sating their short term needs). They do not understand that it takes time, planning and stability for Thailand as a whole to succeed and raise the living standards of all. All western nations generally know there is pain before growth as tough measures are put in place to seed development later however Thailands lower class only see tomorrow. So on that note it makes sense that the middle (yes there is one) and upper class of Thailand are the ones with the knowledge and skill to put in place a Government suitable to run Thailand but as a minority they are unable to.

An election would almost certainly see the current Government thrown out and Taksins Proxies running (Raping) the country again- Once more setting the clock back to zero. It may be undemocratic to say the educated minority should win in this case but in my mind democracy only works (as best it can) when all the voters are suitibly educated and aware of the bigger picture

In my opinion - This Taksin sponsered uprising needs to be quelled and yes with force if need be, so that the current government can do it's job without hinderance and actually allow Thailand to recover and progress. All Thai people will benifit from this in the long run.

Interesting viewpoint.

In sum you are saying that poors should not be given any votes since they are uneducated and they lack global viewpoint, international trade and investment policies.

Sometimes knowing how to plant rice or vegetable is more important and fulfilling than knowing how to use complex financial instruments with some dodgy accounting move like Repo 105. A lot more people suffered because a bunch of highly educated people tried to bump up their year end bonus as a result

My dear friend, this kind of pompous remark and perpetual neglect of other's voices and rights especially those in the lower classes is really what this divide of class war is about, even if we take out the Thaksin/Abhisit equation.

[Hard_done_by]

Interesting viewpoint.

In sum you are saying that poors should not be given any votes since they are uneducated and they lack global viewpoint, international trade and investment policies.

Sometimes knowing how to plant rice or vegetable is more important and fulfilling than knowing how to use complex financial instruments with some dodgy accounting move like Repo 105. A lot more people suffered because a bunch of highly educated people tried to bump up their year end bonus as a result

My dear friend, this kind of pompous remark and perpetual neglect of other's voices and rights especially those in the lower classes is really what this divide of class war is about, even if we take out the Thaksin/Abhisit equation.

I think 'subzone' has a point, and his point goes to the nub of what's happening today. I didn't that he/she said that poor uneducated people don't deserve the vote, I understood him/her to mean that democracy is not served when voters don't understand 'the big picture', and I think he's right.

Yes, planting rice and vegetables is important for some, but not if it is the only skill brought to bear as a member of the Thai goverment, and it certainly is not useful in determining which local member is best to represent the local community in Bangkok, if it is the only skill brought to make that decision.

When you say "... is really what this divide of class war is about. ...", then I think that you are both speaking to same problem but from different perspectives. 'Subzone' wants the poor to be informed and make proper decisions, and you want the poor to have a say, in a way, you are both saying "lift up the poor", and it's a proposition that I've not seen attacked on these forums.

What is the point if the poor are manipulated, and such manipulation is obvious? Is that democracy in action?

What is the point if the poor vote but have no idea of why they vote or who they vote for? Is that democracy in action?

I think Mr. A. has inherited a problem with the rural poor that has been festering for years - and yes, Mr. T. did some nice things, but they weren't enough - now is the time for the present government to make very strong commitments for a real wealth re-distribution (taxation) program which will substantially lift opportunities in education and wealth sharing for the rural and urban poor which go in some meaningful way to reducing corruption and bringing about a more informed electorate, which in the end would suit both of your concerns.

It is ironic, that in such dire circumstances, the best opportunity for a bright future for Thailand has arisen.

[subzone]

Thank you "Hard_Done_By" for responding to "Triptrip" for me. Yes understood my meaning correctly.

I was looking at the reality of the situation in Thailand and I know it because I have lived there a long time. It may be sad and distasteful to those idealists who believe democracy works every where when in fact it doesn't because the conditions that allow it to work effectively do not exist in many countries (This fact seems to be overlooked constantly by the US as it tries to seed thier version of democracy around the world - but that is a topic for another time).

As I see it certain things need to be in place for democracy to have any chance of working:

Equaly educated, informed and aware voters.
Equal access to information especially unbiased press.
A compatable Culture.

Thailand is one of those countries that does not fulfill any of those requirements. As it has large masses of uneducated, illinformed and unaware voters, It's press is heavily biased and it has several incompatablitys with its culture such as:

A class system
A culture of corruption
Virtually independant (Of Gov't control) Military and Police forces
A culture where nobody is held accountable for thier actions especially if they are a member of the upperclass.
A culture where problems are generally solved with violence.

So given the above I believe it is not possible for a western version of democracy to work and therefore nessesary for the voice of the poor (especially as they are being manipulated) to be ignored for thier future benifit as with stability thier lot will definitely improve.

[trtrz]

Thank you "Hard_Done_By" for responding to "Triptrip" for me. Yes understood my meaning correctly.

I was looking at the reality of the situation in Thailand and I know it because I have lived there a long time. It may be sad and distasteful to those idealists who believe democracy works every where when in fact it doesn't because the conditions that allow it to work effectively do not exist in many countries (This fact seems to be overlooked constantly by the US as it tries to seed thier version of democracy around the world - but that is a topic for another time).

As I see it certain things need to be in place for democracy to have any chance of working:

Equaly educated, informed and aware voters.
Equal access to information especially unbiased press.
A compatable Culture.

Thailand is one of those countries that does not fulfill any of those requirements. As it has large masses of uneducated, illinformed and unaware voters, It's press is heavily biased and it has several incompatablitys with its culture such as:

A class system
A culture of corruption
Virtually independant (Of Gov't control) Military and Police forces
A culture where nobody is held accountable for thier actions especially if they are a member of the upperclass.
A culture where problems are generally solved with violence.

So given the above I believe it is not possible for a western version of democracy to work and therefore nessesary for the voice of the poor (especially as they are being manipulated) to be ignored for thier future benifit as with stability thier lot will definitely improve.

Democracy is the best 'tool' humans have for governing a group of people, however it is useless if you don't know how to use the tool/

[Samana]

I have read a lot of articles writing about the plight condition and innocence of the grassroot red-shirt protesters that at the end, all their effort will only bring good to certain ppl, but surely not themselves, as they will return to live life as before even after what they fight for has declared victory. Thus the query here: is it worth for them to scarifice themselves for somebody who later maybe not recognising their effort?

Instead taking all the things like money, reputation, national security, democracy sake, etc in to weight the agenda they are waging for, lets us narrow down the scale so that we can see it clearly. I would use a football game to describe what most of them stand for actually.

This is the final match of FIFA European Champion Cup, between Tottenhem Hot Spurs (T - Thaksin) and AC Milan (A - Abbhisit). The game finished with Tottenhem claimed victory by narrow 1-0 win over AC Milan. After the match, the AC Milan's verdict that the victory should be cancelled as the player who scored the goal is obviously off-site (the election is manipulated and the vote is bought). Unfortunately due to the bad weather, there is no satellite to broadcast and record that game thus, the claim by AC Milan is true or not still in doubt. Instead asking for re-match, AC Milan has singled out the chance for Tottenhem and monolithically, claim itself a victory. To make the things worse, the president of FIFA, has accepted the result. Ok, being a supporter and fan of Tottenhem FC, how do you feel? You are still cheering with other fans over the victory of your team, then suddenly the other side come in and snatch the victory. And now the Tottenhem is demanding for a re-match, not even asking AC Milan to return them the fame. But AC Milan refuse and in return, dubbed the opposite as "terriorist". And may put them in jail if they further any protest and struggle.

The queries arise here:
1) Is it an act of "terriost" to ask just even for a re-match?
2) Is it the victory claimed is in place though they have never ever really beaten the opposite team?
3) Where is the justice?

The current street protestors in Bangkok is just like a football team fan who is vexed by the outrageous treatment form other parties. Maybe what they support will not grant them any return at last, but this is the sentiment which does matter. A footballer like Messi is earning millions per year, but why u still support him (if u were his fan) since all the money earned by him will not share with you and he even doesnt know who u are. To put it in simple, because we admire his hardwork, contributions and, or may be just merely like him, with no special reason. If you want to understand the thinking of the street protestors, just match their sentiment with the above mentioned case that they are none others than loyal Tottenham FC fans who witness how the team they love and admire had been treated unfairly.

Hereby is the message to all so called "elite", journalist and social thinker: Dun try to complicate the sentiment of the red-shirt protestors with all the things like money, fortune, financial return, reputatation, paid by Mr. Thaksin to carry out the demonstartion, etc. As long as you still keep such thinking in judging protestors ability, prowess, endurance and motive, you will forever stay in ur own world which is dirty and with money and reputation driven mind. Of course, there is no room for any comments and arguments of you which is able to resolve the crisis.However if you were not a football nor any other sport team fans, I forgive you, as you will never truly understand the sentiment of a loyal fan.

(P/s: For any fans of Tottenham FC and AC Milan, the above illutrasted match is just to emblem the current street chaos. No offence, sincerely)

What the red shirt is asking is like asking a rematch the next day, when everyone is tired.

Anyway this example is fallacious as a country is much more than a football and there are many factors affecting how the country is run.

If you keep on having too frequent elections the country is going to be unstable as policies cannot be implemented by the govt as effectively as giving the govt time. The election no doubt will happen by 2011 as scheduled, the red shirts just want it earlier for some hidden incentives.

Im not a red shirt, but I want the rematch. If you said the elections will cause unstability, let me ask -so what we are having right now? I think what we are facing is far beyond stability issue. What noble principles this cabinet stands for that had you made an excuse for not having a new elections ? Does their control on the medias stand for liberty to you? Does witch hunt accusations stand for equality to you? Does prosecute all political oppositions policy stand for justice to you? I dont get it, so please share your opinion. I know that Im not very fluent in English, but I try my best to express my opinions. I would like to hear why you support this cabinet, after all these happened. Please enlight me.

[Jason McDonald]

Just one question for those who espouse their views of democracy. Does USA have a democracy by true definition? I think not. More concerning is the fact that I lived in America for a while with my family and most Americans did not understand that they do not vote for their president. People actually vote for a person who will vote for a person to become president. So if 100% of people in a state want to vote democrat, the person that ends up getting voted for could be republican. The person who voted republican would probably get shot after the election, but non-the -less it could still happen. This is not democracy. If Thailand is going to establish a new system of democracy please do not follow the USA model, as it operates on the principle of "good faith" NOT democracy. And good faith is easily abused.

[trtrz]

Im not a red shirt, but I want the rematch. If you said the elections will cause unstability, let me ask -so what we are having right now? I think what we are facing is far beyond stability issue. What noble principles this cabinet stands for that had you made an excuse for not having a new elections ? Does their control on the medias stand for liberty to you? Does witch hunt accusations stand for equality to you? Does prosecute all political oppositions policy stand for justice to you? I dont get it, so please share your opinion. I know that Im not very fluent in English, but I try my best to express my opinions. I would like to hear why you support this cabinet, after all these happened. Please enlight me.

Elections can be held and should be held and we agreed on that. What we don't agree on is when we should have election. I believe it should not be now, but sometimes later to give time for economic policies to bare fruits. Ironically, the govt offer an election date at the end of this year, but the red rejected it.

What noble principles this cabinet stands for that had you made an excuse for not having a new elections ?

I believe they did call for new election.

Does their control on the medias stand for liberty to you?

No, but do u think the government has control of the media right now except for NBT? I think the media has been quite fair and objective except for ASTV, NBT and PTV. I disagreed with censorship, but this element is not a specialty of this govt, but of any govt and in which case Thaksin was much better and much more intruding at media control and often journalists know this fact well.

Does witch hunt accusations stand for equality to you?

I think what the govt did is in no way witch hunt. If i will go buy your standards, chasing a criminal is also a witch hunt.

I believe this question is close to comical, because there is no voodoo stuff going on and charges on red shirt leaders had been based on objective truths.

Does prosecute all political oppositions policy stand for justice to you?

I believe that as a the government, they have the right to prosecute anyone who use violence and intimidation on the general citizens.

I believe your question is fallacious, because you are using political banner as a shield for commons crime such as kidnapping and use of war weapons.

Justice is when those who violate laws are brought to justice.

I dont get it

You don't get it or you don't want to get it, that is the question.


why i support this cabinet:

1. land reform - the only true policy that will help double standard in Thai society
2. Abhisit - a rational person, which is the least i can ask for a leader of my own country. Thaksin is skilled, but he often use his emotion, which include both hatred and greed to conquer his judgement.
3. they tried their best not to use force, if it was other cabinet, the red shirts would be wiped out already. I think they are using alot of restraints.

However, I did not fully support this government and disagreed with some of their actions....including ICT censorship (Ranongrat is a wimp) and appointment of Kasit (he is too much of a nationalist for a foreign minister). This is because, I don't polarise on the basis of people, but will position myself according to each action, which is why i believe your question is again fallacious, because i don't support the cabinet, but i support some of it actions by some of its members.