Which special forces is best?

[Just-1-Voice2]

Ian.

Not to get in a “pissing contest” with you as to which Special Forces group is best, because all of them have their strong points, as well as some weaknesses. In my 3 years in ‘Nam I worked a couple of times with Aussie SAS units. Nice guys, big, but not exactly the quietest of people when trying to move through the jungle without sound.

After ‘Nam I moved around the world a lot. South & Central America, Africa, Middle East, and even a trip into what was then the Soviet Union. My specialty was Rescue & Extraction, which could cover a lot of area, from actual rescues to grabbing someone that couldn’t be taken by “normal means”.

The “failure” in the Iranian Hostage situation was doomed from the start. First it was poorly planned. Second, I know from my own sources at the time that someone “jumped the gun” and took off ahead of schedule. Third, the equipment failure, which just put the nail in the coffin. My team was actually on “standby” for that operation, ready to go if they called, but after what happened with the first units, everyone was told to stand down.

During the initial stages of the war on Iraq, it was Marine Recon who “painted” the targets with lasers for the bombs to do their work.

Although I had always hoped to do so, I never got a chance to work with Mossad, whom I have very high regard for.

But, again, you have to realize that not every special ops unit can do the same thing, nor are they all trained for the same thing. There are special units within each group that train specifically for certain tasks.

You made a comment about how I “don’t look the part”, which made me laugh, as you are not the first person to look at me and kind of shake their head when they find out I was Force Recon. Even when I was still on active duty, some other Marines would look at me somewhat with disbelief. But as the old saying goes: “You can’t judge a book by it’s cover”.

[bkpforummod]

J1V2,

Not to \\ //// on your contest, but I split this as it was getting a little too unrelated, and 'yes', I realize I was a contributing factor to that. But, I did like the post and found it worthy of its own thread.

That being said, I need to speak with the other moddies, we need a forum area like "The Lounge" (that a lot of boards have, maybe under different names), where users can post unrelated threads/posts aside from the central theme of the website, which is where this would have gone...

Now, Special Forces vs intel. I agree with everything you say more or less, but you cross the murky line of talking about what are Special Forces, a military arm, versus the intelligence community. Though yes they do often work hand in hand closely most times.

In military terms I would have to say US Navy Seals - those boys are hardcore. They go through forms of torture willing to get their strips and the pass/fail rate is stunning lopsided to the fail side.

In intelligence terms I would have to say Mossad, with the CIA as a close runner up. In terms of infiltration and covert ops Mossad is pretty \\//// good. They have deep cover agents in half the countries around the world reporting back to them, and when they decide to pull off a covert op it is rarely attributed to them.

That's where the US's CIA fails: [Sometimes] when they are trying to pull off a covert op - like kidnapping a European citizen and taking them to be tortured in Asia - it becomes easily attributed them. But the US's response seems to be either silence, or at best, an attitude of, 'Yeah? So what are you going to do about it?' In terms of infiltration they are doing grand, they *might* have the highest rate. It is a well known fact that any consulate/embassy in the world the US has, that there is also a CIA CO (Case Officer), responsible for developing local contacts and running American agents in the field, when they exist...

Others worth mentioning:

Britain’s SIS seems pretty effective. But it seems more aimed at infiltration and intel than covert ops. If I am wrong, then wow, they are doing as good of a job covering their but as Mossad.

Russia's Foreign Intelligence Service (FIS); Upon the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia reformed their former KGB to the FIS, as the KGB during the Cold War they were excellent at infiltration and covert ops, but since then they seem to be slacking a bit. I mean killing people then claiming it wasn't you while the evidence stacks up that it was only to turn to the tactic of pressing your hands over your ears and screaming "LALALALALALALALALA - I CAN'T HEAR YOU! - LALALALALALA!" does not bode well.

Okay, the last one:

China's Ministry of State Security (MSS): Interesting one here, because just as the USSR did a good job of infiltration for intelligence during the Cold War, China is hardcore on infiltration in the modern era. Let's face it as a product of having 1.3 billion people and having sizable Diaspora living in just about EVERY country in the world. Good on 'em, don't get me wrong. But what is interesting to me is how after the Cold War the power vacuum that was created and easily filled by the 'Chinese Dragon' as a rising super-power in the 21st Century, filled that void in so many ways. Not to mention that the Chinese Triad (organized crime), pervades all elements of Chinese society - at home and abroad. You want agents, 'bag men', or outright riots spreading through the US? Hit the switch - every major city would be shut down.

Just my take on things - not that I know anything...

BFM –

[Ian]

Just-1-Voice2, you misunderstood me, when I said you could not look the part, I did not mean you were a 7 stone weakling
I meant you could not look truly Arab Semitic without a lot of plastic surgery.

Returning to the discussion, the old saying is "horses for courses". I think where "hardcore" capabilities are concerned, they are all pretty much the same, rather like premier league football clubs, sometime one wins, sometimes another.
Sneakiness is a different game, probably Mossad is best at this although the SAS did a good job of infiltering the Irish Republican army. As for intelligence, there are so many different teams in this game they often waste effort spying on each other thinking it is the enemy Much of it now is electronic anyway, from listening to radio chatter, Internet chatter or hacking other people's systems.

i think the old days of creeping through jungles are over, with infra red goggles, acoustic amplifiers, airbourn molecule sensors (artificial dog noses), and probably more that we don't even know about, no one can hide anymore. I read they are now working on an invisibility cloak (light bender).

[Just-1-Voice2]

Ian,

Ok, now I understand what you mean, and completely agree with you. During my little “vacations” in the Middle East, let’s just say that my presence was never revealed during daylight hours, and only at night.

Yes, things have changed a lot since the days when we were young, dumb and full of vinegar. Technology has taken over a major portion of what was once relegated to the man in the field. However, as much as technology develops, there are certain tasks which no machine or computer can do, which is why special ops will always be around in one form or another.

Yet, in going back to your comment (the one I misinterpreted), I still have to smile sometimes, as I often did in the past, when people look at me and try to picture me as a Force Recon Marine. I’m all of 175 cm tall and tipped the scales (at my “prime”) at about 73 kg. I was not your “poster child” for Special Forces by any means. On the “up side”, that lack of bulk came in handy as a smaller target is harder to hit, as well as harder to see.

To the MOD. No problem in switching this to a separate topic. Perhaps your idea of a “lounge” would be something useful.

[Ian]

Ian,

Ok, now I understand what you mean, and completely agree with you. During my little “vacations” in the Middle East, let’s just say that my presence was never revealed during daylight hours, and only at night.

Yes, things have changed a lot since the days when we were young, dumb and full of vinegar. Technology has taken over a major portion of what was once relegated to the man in the field. However, as much as technology develops, there are certain tasks which no machine or computer can do, which is why special ops will always be around in one form or another.

Yet, in going back to your comment (the one I misinterpreted), I still have to smile sometimes, as I often did in the past, when people look at me and try to picture me as a Force Recon Marine. I’m all of 175 cm tall and tipped the scales (at my “prime”) at about 73 kg. I was not your “poster child” for Special Forces by any means. On the “up side”, that lack of bulk came in handy as a smaller target is harder to hit, as well as harder to see.

To the MOD. No problem in switching this to a separate topic. Perhaps your idea of a “lounge” would be something
useful.

Well I can beat you at 167 cm and 66 Kg. However I was faster and more nimble than my brawnier partners, particularly underground. I was easily lost in a crowd of undernourished Eastern Europeans I'm pretty much over the hill now, but a few times in the past 5 years I have been pleased to note that I can revert to form when the adrenaline flows
However, my main skill and training has always been brain power rather than brawn power. That was why the SAS recruited me, I did not volunteer and it took a lot of persuasion.

[Suttisan]

There is a logical reason British special forces don't look like body builders is that they are special forces they have to be able to walk into a pub and blend into the background, a 6 foot 3 guy built like a brick \\ //// house gets a look from everyone, SAS is the best in the world for a reason, as another example British special forces would seldom go for head shots where as American special forces would, again there is a logical reason for this wounding the enemy affects the morale of those around them, they all get scared, also it takes 3 men to help an injured soldier so there's another 3 targets to pick off. Storming Norman Scwarzkoff said British special forces were best in the world and i guess he would know.

[stilljustbrowsing]

The best special forces are the ones we know least about, otherwise they wouldn't be special, would they?

[Ian]

The best special forces are the ones we know least about, otherwise they wouldn't be special, would they?

Actually, a lot of what is publicly know is intentional misdirection or intentional hype. For example if the SAS is reputed to be composed of invincible warriors, just threatening to use them if often enough to frighten the enemy.

Once in Germany I and two others walked in uniform into a NAAFI bar full of British, American and German troops, there was instant spreading silence and a path opened up for us from the door to the bar. I guess publicity works

[stilljustbrowsing]

I agree Ian, if you notice I said "know least about", not "of"

[bkpforummod]

Gurkhas... (Who happen to work with the British SAS).

They are not to be messed with. Apparently not even if you have a five meter distance advantage and a well-aimed, loaded shotgun in your favor.

Then there are the Serbs, but they do not qualify as they were acting illegally under international war laws and committing genocide. But Arkan's Tigers and then Chetniks, lets just say if you found yourself on the wrong side of these guys back in the day - you were about to have a VERY bad day. Beleive me, I know. Pretty decent sniper always on hand too.

BFM -