The rich and the poor

[taurus]

IMO every coup, protest, change of constitution since 1932 has been about the same issue - lack of democracy... Thaksin is irrelevant. He's just the latest fall guy to divert attention from the real issues. The behaviour of the government is the same old, same old - witness today's latest: Government 'fails in probes of journalist deaths' article. The families and governments of the journalists are treated with contempt - why? Because there is something to hide.

So Thaksin is an irrelevance and a victim of circumstance and has nothing whatsoever to hide? what a crock of s--t

[Blurbwriter]

taurus: maybe you don't undertand the word 'irrelevant'. I did not say Thaksin is a 'victim of circumstance'. I am pointing out that throughout Thailand's history there have been lots of 'Thaksins' - the fundamental issue of disenfranchisement has never been resolved. Until it is the cycle of coups, constitution changes, revolving governments will continue with varying degrees of violence perpetrated by all sides.

[drake]

now only an internationally monitored free and fair election and acceptance by all of the outcome will stabilise things

In order to properly combat voting irregularities, one must first understand what the irregularities are.
In the case of rural Thailand, the biggest problem seems to be vote buying (aka. vote rigging)
Since you are so certain that an international monitoring team will be effective, you must have some familiarity about this vote buying thing and how the international team can make sure that it doesn't happen.
Please share with us what you know of this vote buying practice.

[Blurbwriter]

In order to properly combat voting irregularities, one must first understand what the irregularities are.
In the case of rural Thailand, the biggest problem seems to be vote buying (aka. vote rigging)
Since you are so certain that an international monitoring team will be effective, you must have some familiarity about this vote buying thing and how the international team can make sure that it doesn't happen.
Please share with us what you know of this vote buying practice.[/quote]

My experience in Isan which was very amusing at the time, was witnessing so called 'vote buying' by 3 different political parties (including the current incumbents) where money was handed out on the 'understanding' that the recipients would vote accordingly. The recipients however, voted as they saw fit, more or less as a bloc - they paid no attention to the vote 'buyers' interests as they had already formed their opinions via open and frank discussion. They then pooled the money for a 'korean' barbeque (their description) or, in another case as a contribution to funding the buses to Bangkok. They were happy to take money from all and sundry (with a winning smile) but it had zero effect on their voting decisions. So, my conclusion was that 'vote' buying is really a complete waste of time and money by all political parties.
An international election monitoring team would need to ensure that peoples' votes were actually counted and that the results were accurate. The most important issue following that would be the most difficult, getting the country as a whole to accept the outcome and, if certain segments are unhappy, accepting that they have to wait for the (hopefully regular) next election for an opportunity to change the government rather than launching a coup.

[taurus]

A well written article Blurbwriter, unfortunately in my view it holds about as much water as a car park puddle , just a few relative facts,when the military staged the coup against the Thaksin govt they was met with bouquets of flowers not rebellion and dissent , why has it taken so long for the "people to rise up"?,why so few in comparison to the population?,why all the "I love Thaksin" banners,T shirts and headbands,Why the almost nightly Thaksin video "pep talks" to the paid masses"? , why the rush for an immediate GE when Abhi promised one 12 months early? do you in your wildest dreams think that Thaksin of all people really believed in what the Red leaders were demanding ?IMHO all this romantic nonsense by the red leaders was just "window dressing" to try and get Thaksin back to power and have his wealth restored, nothing more nothing less.

[drake]

My experience in Isan which was very amusing at the time, was witnessing so called 'vote buying' by 3 different political parties (including the current incumbents) where money was handed out on the 'understanding' that the recipients would vote accordingly.

Wow, those are some chumps of vote buyers in your neck of the woods.

In the old days, some time before the election is even announced, the opposing parties would send their representatives to meet with the Kamnan of a ville (not at the same time, of course) to haggle out a deal in term of individual pay off and Kamnan's share for managing the votes as well as what other payout can be expected after the candidate is in the office. By the time the election is announced all the population of the ville would already know who they are supposed to vote for.
Sometime after the election is called , no more than two weeks usually, the rep from the winning party would drop off the reimbursement and the Kamnan is in charge of distributing the cash to the people.
Let's say that things didn't go as plan and a few people didn't vote the way they were supposed to.
Obviously, a ville is a small place and words eventually gets round as to who the deal breakers were.
The people who didn't toe the line soon ended up the usual suspects in the war on drugs or some such.

Wow, I can't believe the total bumpkins today hands out the money before the election is called!
Those vote buyers must have just fallen off a banana truck.
I mean, even the Russians know better. No free vodka before you votes, comrade

Back in the days - USSR, on election day you go to the poll, they tell you who the winner of the election is going to be, you go in to the voting room and punch your ballot. After you submitted the ballot then you are allowed to go in to the next room where they are handing out free vodka.
As my bud said, the only reason we go to poll is for free drinks.
He also said, things hasn't changed much.

Hard to believe that the vote buyers in Isan are so incompetent now, what a shame, can't even do that right no mo.
OTOH, let's hope they don't go back to doing business the old way or your Election Monitors are going to be totally useless.

Thanks for sharing, it was a real entertaining tales.

[Eric]

In order to properly combat voting irregularities, one must first understand what the irregularities are.
"In the case of rural Thailand, the biggest problem seems to be vote buying (aka. vote rigging)
Since you are so certain that an international monitoring team will be effective, you must have some familiarity about this vote buying thing and how the international team can make sure that it doesn't happen.
Please share with us what you know of this vote buying practice.[/quote]"

International monitoring team do not directly prevent electoral fraud but their roles are to record and report any fraud instances. The legitimacy of the election can be affected by such reports or critism of international monitors.

Buying votes has been around since 1936 in Thailand when the practices were first recorded. It has been known that at least 21 different form of vote buying exist from the direct pay off to buying of phone cards, medicine etc. The thing is that it is illegal and there is a criminal law that can convict both parties under Section 53 of the Organic Action on Election of MPs. So it down to the will of the authority to implement the law to its fullest. There must be sufficient & painful deterents to 'make sure that it doesn't happen'. Why then is it still tolerable. It is just that all parties has went to the punch bowl too often and tasted the good stuff and none will refrain. To think about it, blaming Taksin for vote buying is just a cop out. All parties were guilty for a long time and will still prevail for a long time on.

[trtrz]

My experience in Isan which was very amusing at the time, was witnessing so called 'vote buying' by 3 different political parties (including the current incumbents) where money was handed out on the 'understanding' that the recipients would vote accordingly. The recipients however, voted as they saw fit, more or less as a bloc - they paid no attention to the vote 'buyers' interests as they had already formed their opinions via open and frank discussion. They then pooled the money for a 'korean' barbeque (their description) or, in another case as a contribution to funding the buses to Bangkok. They were happy to take money from all and sundry (with a winning smile) but it had zero effect on their voting decisions. So, my conclusion was that 'vote' buying is really a complete waste of time and money by all political parties.

But from talking to Isaan people I know, they said they have the "morale" to vote for the one that give the most to them, under the assumption that one is the best person (because they give the most).

So it is a matter of outbidding the other side.

[taurus]

In order to properly combat voting irregularities, one must first understand what the irregularities are.
"In the case of rural Thailand, the biggest problem seems to be vote buying (aka. vote rigging)
Since you are so certain that an international monitoring team will be effective, you must have some familiarity about this vote buying thing and how the international team can make sure that it doesn't happen.
Please share with us what you know of this vote buying practice.

"

International monitoring team do not directly prevent electoral fraud but their roles are to record and report any fraud instances. The legitimacy of the election can be affected by such reports or critism of international monitors.

Buying votes has been around since 1936 in Thailand when the practices were first recorded. It has been known that at least 21 different form of vote buying exist from the direct pay off to buying of phone cards, medicine etc. The thing is that it is illegal and there is a criminal law that can convict both parties under Section 53 of the Organic Action on Election of MPs. So it down to the will of the authority to implement the law to its fullest. There must be sufficient & painful deterents to 'make sure that it doesn't happen'. Why then is it still tolerable. It is just that all parties has went to the punch bowl too often and tasted the good stuff and none will refrain. To think about it, blaming Taksin for vote buying is just a cop out. All parties were guilty for a long time and will still prevail for a long time on. [/quote/ Simple question Eric ,after reading your well written post and acknowledging that Thaksin like so many others before him just bought votes , do you honestly believe that the military who staged the coup in 06 was against the "democratically elected" Government of multi billionaire Thaksin Shinawatra as other "Romantic dreamers" in this forum would have us believe ,and to be quite frank TRTRZ's earlier post describes the situation to the letter

[Voice]

Drake wrote “Sung to the tune "I'm Bad" by the late Michael 'super bleached' Jackson.

Seems to me you've got some issue there, friend.
We all bleeds red here, no ?

Yes! You are right there when we bleeding in blood it naturally red. But most of us will always forget that we have this common bond yet through exterior we cannot accept others as they are. So we bring this class divide and call ourselves superior race. Back in Elizabeth Tudor period aristocrat women will paint their face white to show how rich they were. If you white means you never done a hard days work in your life. In Thai society all women want to white like European because if you have dark skin it shows that you came from poor hard working family. I don’t it really makes any different since our genetic makeup came from our parent so no cream is going to make us any whiter. If white Chinese father and dark skin mother from Issan it doesn’t guaranteed that the children will come out white. Not all Chinese are smart businessmen it all about opportunity. Most people that came Pakistan & Indian who arrived in UK mostly done really well for themselves because they have the opportunity & equal right to fend for themselves. They also hard working people it also the same with Issan people who willing to work very hard to earn their living. If you ask any worker on the building site they will tell you that they are from Issan. If Thailand would allow people their opportunity & equal right & same respect as white Chinese have whose know we might see some rich Issan for a change. Thailand like to keep it people under control to do this they have to keep people under dependency by suppress them and them poor. So there isn’t opportunity for them to move up the ladder. As rich want to suppress the poor to keep the cost of labour low and as some has said here that most Thai business is family run so they have a better control of whom they will keep under their supervision of employment. So you’re not going to see an Issan man become managing director in a Chinese family run business. Yes the team work is western idea of how to run good business but you not going to see it happen in Thailand unless we have more foreign companies to operate in Thailand which would allow more investment & opportunities for those that needed most. Apart from having jobs it would allow them to express themselves in some positive way and perhaps advance themselves through ladder of achievement.