Preah Vihea issues

[dicktano]

UN already say that Temple are on Camodian side of the border.
If you respect UN = end of story

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?N ... emple&Cr1=

and

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?N ... bodia&Cr1=

[drake]

If you respect UN = end of story

Respect that lot of power grabbing criminals ?
NEVER.

The litany of crimes against humanity directly or indirectly perpetrated by the UN and it's agents in the past 40 years is long and hideous. You might want to look in to it and decide for yourself if UN is worthy of anything.

I don't want to make issue hot. But the fact is fact and history is history.

Hey, you are absolutely right about that but you failed the bigger picture.
Sometime around 880AD after Chenla/Khmer seceded from the Funan city-state, they were able to raise big enough an army to invade and occupy lower Dhavaravadi. Upper Dhavaravadi paid tribute to the Khmer for a while to stay free.
About this time was when the Khmer empire stretches from Saigon to the Andaman and the temples got built, KPV included.
Not long after the Khmer tried to invade Vietnam and lost the first time around 1150AD, Upper Dhavaravadi states mustered enough of an army to come down and reclaimed what that was lost....

The entire territory had since been an on again-off again proposition as both Sukhothai and Ayudahya took Cambodia as it's colony and Cambodia would secede when the Burmese attacks Siam.

The area down to TonleSap was last taken by ////// Taksin in mid 1800 but the French put a gun to the Siamese's head and forced them to sign a treaty in 1893 giving the area away.
The Siamese took it back in 1941 but was promptly ripped-off again at the end of WWII
In 1962, the international kangkaroo court decided 5-7 in favour of giving KPV to Cambodia on technicality.
The ICJ point being that Siam did not object to the 1904 map being "wrong" so it's acceptance by default but the fact that that Siam had more that "objected" to the map by occupying the land itself several times since 1904 was completely lost on them.

It's not just one this temple on a hill that's being contested.
The whole strip of around PoiPet/Aranyapratet is still a big mess as well.

The actual line of demarcation is very fuzzy along the border.
Cambodia claims some of the demarcation markers were moved in to their territory and Thailand claims the same.

In April 1977 the Cambodians ignored history and attacked Vietnam again with disastrous result.
They were eventually pushed all the way in to Thai territory and a three way skirmish broke out on Thai soil...
The Vietnamese stayed in Cambodia for over a decade and so did the fighting on that border.
Between 1970 and 1992, KPV was used, on and off, by one Cambodian faction or another as a military base resulting KPV to be attacked and damaged by the opposing force.

So, did some markers got moved during the shooting then and can anyone say where the border really is exactly any more ? Really ?

[zheng]

It is good to bring a bigger picture of the story. It would be great to see the more bigger picture. I think everyone know how Thai/Viet came to SE ASIA.

Picking a particular point in time does not provide a complete picture of the story and often leads to wrong judgment. For instance, if someone took your money yesterday and today you try to get it back, people would see you a theft if report is only made of what happening today instead of the root cause of story since yesterday.

Some Thais think that they used to control PVH or Angkor when Cambodia lost the war and they should be theirs. Have you ever asked who own them before?

Cambodians have lost so much to their neigbors, but they choose to live in peace. it is up to their neighbors too what they want for future destination.

In this modern time, people are become closer and closer than before due to globalization. They are sharing development, prosperity and peace. Why thai and cambodians need to be divided over the small plot of land? There is also a clear boundary (map) recognized by both countries, why cant we use it to end the issue?

[drake]

It is good to bring a bigger picture of the story. It would be great to see the more bigger picture. I think everyone know how Thai/Viet came to SE ASIA.

Like every where else, everybody in SE Asia is a migrant from somewhere at one time or another, so is the Khmers.
The neolithic indigenous people had long been absorbed or eliminated.

Some Thais think that they used to control PVH or Angkor when Cambodia lost the war and they should be theirs.

But, of course.
That IS how things are normally settled up until all the losers started to go whining to some bigger apes and bribe them with more bananas to come in and 'mediate'.
KPV and Angkor are likely to be under Siamese control had it not been for the French.

Cambodians have lost so much to their neigbors, but they choose to live in peace.

Sorry, you might want to look again before dropping that poor victim card.
Cambodians had been shooting at their own people well in to the 90s.
Anything they they might have "lost" since independence from France was totally self-inflicted.

In this modern time, people are become closer and closer than before due to globalization. They are sharing development, prosperity and peace.

That is SO hilarious.
You might want to ask the Chinese who are living in underground nuclear bunker because they can't afford an above ground apartment if they think they are getting any of this global prosperity thing.
What we are having here is no peace, it's merely an absence of declared war.
Globalization is an agreement between theives to divide up the spoils of the world while it lasts.
Everything is available for sharing, at a price, if you can afford it.
The agreement is falling apart and it's just getting messier by the second.

Why thai and cambodians need to be divided over the small plot of land? There is also a clear boundary (map) recognized by both countries, why cant we use it to end the issue?

As far as the Siamese are concern, the KPV annex1 map was forced upon them at gun point therefore not worth the paper it's printed on and too stiff to be used in the toilet.
The Khmer, OTOH, want back the entire territory they used to have back in 1350AD.
You know, like, they tried to invaded Vietnam in 1975 then ran in to Thailand to hide after they got whupped....

As far as the rest of the boundary goes, it's worse of a mess.
There isn't an official map that is recognized by both countries right now.

Roger has a very sensible solution for KPV but I don't think either of them is going to hand it to a third party to mange and it still won't solve the rest of the territory dispute.

[zheng]

Nice explanation....now I know that's why its hard to a find a solution for both countries.

[Absara]

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I enjoy reading your posts as I often find them quite entertaining.

There are times to babble and there are times to get a bit more serious. I think most Thais are against this PV mumbo-jumbo, but they are afraid to speak out for fear of being branded/prosecuted as traitors; or as often the case with other issues, they simply don’t care. Either way, the nation will pay a heavy price for such lax attitude.

The armed conflict with Cambodia is definitely a no-win situation for Thailand as such conflict will only increase Cambodia’s dependency on Vietnam, which in turn accelerates the creation of Indochina Federation State (IFS) - Vietnam’s ultimate dream for a “union” of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. The birth of IFS will mark the end of the security, stability and prosperity the country (Thailand) has known/enjoyed since the decline of the Khmer empire. Watch out Thailand!

[drake]

There are times to babble and there are times to get a bit more serious. I think most Thais are against this PV mumbo-jumbo, but they are afraid to speak out for fear of being branded/prosecuted as traitors; or as often the case with other issues, they simply don’t care. Either way, the nation will pay a heavy price for such lax attitude.

Hard to say.
I'm hanging out in a little neighbourhood in the outskirt of BKK.
Apparently, it's full of 'red shirts' and they are all cursing the PM for just about everything and wanting the govt. to go get all the territories back from Cambodia, including KPV.
My neighbour next door is a hard core "yellow shirt" and she's cursing the PM for just about everything and wanting the govt. to go get all the territories back from Cambodia, particularly KPV.

Then, when I talk to 'regular' people they all agree that it's a rigged game with no real meaning though they would like to see KPV officially belonging to Thailand....

Nationalism is a funny thing and it's all same-same the world over.

The armed conflict with Cambodia is definitely a no-win situation for Thailand as such conflict will only increase Cambodia’s dependency on Vietnam, which in turn accelerates the creation of Indochina Federation State (IFS) - Vietnam’s ultimate dream for a “union” of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. The birth of IFS will mark the end of the security, stability and prosperity the country (Thailand) has known/enjoyed since the decline of the Khmer empire. Watch out Thailand!

Can't quite say. I've got no horse in this race.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a game rigged by the ruling party of both countries to distract the population from real issues.
Note that the other crossings are still open for Cambodians to come shop in Thailand and for Thais to go gambling in Cambodia while the shooting and shelling is going on near/at KPV.

As for the rest, some things can not be expressed in term of economic value and this is one of them as far as a lot of ppl is concerned. Nationalism is a funny thing.

I don't think Thailand is too worry about the IFS as it's trying to get in bed with China - a much bigger fish.
Laos has got squat as far as natural resources and skilled labour, Cambodia is not that much better off.
All three countries are card carrying communists so they might as well hangs together. They might get lucky and comes out better than NAFTA or EU.
BUT, there's still a lot of ppl in Cambodia who still remember being occupied by the Vietnamese army and Nationalism is a funny thing.

[samuraj]

Hi, You are all wrong have a look at this first and read about the real reason.......money money oil oil gas gas


The struggle between Thailand and Cambodia over oil and gas resources

16 September, 2010

While international attention is focused the political risk resulting from the ongoing diplomatic tit for tat between Cambodia and Thailand over Preah Vihear, overlooked is the fight to exploit untapped oil and gas reserves under their disputed maritime boundary in the Gulf of Thailand.

The disputed area, also known as the Overlapping Claims Area (‘OCA’), has been a point of contention in the relationship between the two countries and the settlement of the dispute would be a boon to not only diplomatic relations, but also to further energy exploration and production in Southeast Asia.


The OCA is a 27,000 sq km offshore area estimated to contain up to 11 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and underdetermined quantities of condensate and oil. The OCA is bounded by the Cambodia claim of 1972 (western boundary) and the Thai claim of 1973 (eastern boundary line), as well as the 1991 Cambodian-Vietnam maritime border (southern boundary).

As Thailand’s energy needs increase and the Cambodia’s nascent oil and gas industry matures, there is increasing pressure from many quarters to see the dispute between Thailand and Cambodia settled.

Progress towards a resolution of the dispute

While a 2001 MOU between Thailand and Cambodia outlined an agreed framework to settle the maritime dispute, progress has been slow as political tensions between Cambodia and Thailand have remained fragile since 2003 when the Thai embassy and Thai owned businesses were attacked in Cambodia. Subsequent tensions over the disputed border demarcation near the Preah Vihear temple have also meant that substantive talks remain elusive.

While there were periods where relations thawed and talks to resolve the dispute held, the Thai cabinet at the end of 2009 voted to scrap the 2001 MOU. This has added further uncertainty as to how talks may proceed in future.

Preah Vihear temple a stumbling block to settling the OCA dispute…
In 1962 following a lengthy dispute, a majority of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague awarded the Prae Vihear temple to Cambodia. While Thailand eventually respected the courts decision, anger remains raw over the loss of sovereignty, and Thailand vigorously claims rights over 4.6sq km of undemarcated land surrounding the temple itself, which is located in the far north of Cambodia.

Constitutionally, all issues regarding territorial sovereignty must be passed by two thirds of the Thai parliament, where there is significant opposition to any relinquishment of territorial claim, regardless of political alignments. The temple dispute and topic of sovereignty are highly charged issues in the Thai political discourse. Even creating the impression of forfeiting sovereignty can be politically fraught.

In 2008, Thai foreign minister Noppadon Pattama was forced to resign after a court ruled he had violated the constitution after the government supported Cambodia’s moves to have Preah Vihear World Heritage listed. In the ensuing scandal the entire cabinet was threatened with possible impeachment.

A number of diplomatic and military sources in Thailand have suggested that discussions on the maritime border issue cannot truly begin until some compromises have been reached on the temple issue.

Any talk of settling the maritime disputes generally leads to accusations of ‘selling out’, especially from the Thai side, where compromises on the Preah Vihear issue are seen as a trade-off for additional economic benefit from the Cambodian’s in the OCA.

Revenue sharing
The issue of revenue sharing was a key problem identified by both Thai and Cambodian sources.

Both countries have presented competing proposals in earlier talks. Cambodia proposes dividing the disputed area in a checkerboard fashion, creating at least 14 different blocks. Revenues and management of the blocks would be shared equally on a 50/50 basis.

The main Thai counter-proposal is that the disputed area be divided into three strips running north-south, with the revenue from the central area to be shared equally on a 50/50 basis. The share from the outer areas would be weighted in favour of the country adjacent to that area, approximately 80/20 to Thailand on the western side of the OCA and 80/20 to Cambodia on the eastern side of the OCA.

Is the Thai proposal unfair?
In the absence of firm data on reserves in the OCA (exploration not being allowed given the ongoing dispute), experts have indicated that it makes intuitive sense that most of the exploitable reserves are located towards the Thai side of the OCA. This is because the Pattani basin, the oil field which contains most of the offshore oil and gas reserves in undisputed Thai waters, extends into the OCA. Conversely, geological formations in oil fields on the Cambodian side of the border have made drilling there challenging and uneconomic in some instances.

The result of this situation is that the Thai proposal for revenue sharing favours the Thai’s, given the balance of the reserves that can be economically drilled sit on the Thai side of the OCA.

Thailand still wins under the Cambodian proposal
The Cambodian proposal for a 50/50 revenue split, though rejected by Thailand, would nevertheless see Thailand gain the largest slice of the overall economic pie. Thai companies have more than 30 years of exploration and production experience when compared to those in the Cambodian industry, which is still in its infancy. As such Thai based oil producers, exploration companies (e.g. PTTEP) and contractors would likely undertake the bulk of the work in the OCA and thus derive a majority of the benefits.

Thailand would also gain a new source of gas for power generation lessening the reliance on Burmese supplies, as well as gaining through the displacement of imported oil, which comprises a substantial percentage of its daily consumption.

As such, the potential for compromise will largely rest on Thailand’s ability to agree to a revenue sharing agreement which recognises the inherent external benefits that will accrue to Thailand.

What will ultimately bring both sides back to the table (again)?
1) A change of philosophy to marine border demarcation

A Thai navy expert familiar with the issue of the maritime border also suggested a ‘good starting point’ for resolution is for Cambodia to accept the lack of legal basis for the demarcation line which Cambodia has drawn through Kut Island (a Thai resort island ceded by Cambodia’s former colonial master, France in 1904 ). From the Thai perspective, Cambodia may have to draw another line by using the median line principal, to delimit the territorial sea and continental shelf between the two countries.

This would be a start from where both countries can begin to look at delimiting the border in the top portion of the OCA (see map), which both countries have stated they must delimit, before any movement on a JDA can be achieved.

2) A more mature Cambodian oil and gas industry

The other key element of ‘compromise’ will be the natural development of the Cambodian exploration and production sector. A more developed Cambodian sector which can compete with Thailand’s mature oil and gas industry has been identified by long time Cambodian advisors as a key way for Cambodia to strengthen its bargaining position against Thailand. This would allow Cambodian based firms to more fully capture the economic benefits from the development of fields in the OCA.

A more mature Cambodian oil and gas sector will come slowly however. Although there has been much hyped speculation surrounding the potential of the industry in Cambodian waters, the reality is that development of reserves is more difficult than expected. Cambodian production forecasts are now much less than the optimistic figures which were published earlier this decade by multilaterals such as the IMF. The IMF had predicted approximately 400 to 700 million barrels of reserves, whereas a key advisor to the Cambodian government expects that proven economic reserves of around 50 million barrels are more realistic, with a recovery rate of 6 % to potentially 14%.

While Chevron is expecting to pump oil from its first well in December 2012, the development of an industry comparable to Thailand’s is quite a way off.

3) Increased gas demand by Thailand

It is quite well known that Thailand is heavily reliant on gas for power production. The majority of this gas will need to be imported in future as its reserves in the Gulf of Thailand and from Burma dwindle. The Cambodian’s see this situation as one of the key dynamics which will bring Thailand to the negotiating table.

However, in addition to their goal of a more mature O&G industry, the Cambodian position for negotiating a settlement to the OCA is one that is increasingly aware that there is no rush to push Thailand, given that there are higher benefits from Cambodia waiting for Thailand to ‘need’ Cambodia more, and increased economic upside from a more mature Cambodian industry.

Could the concept of a Joint Development Area be contemplated by authorities of both countries?

The concept of a Joint Development Area (JDA) seems to be the only realistic solution to both countries’ overlapping claims in the Gulf of Thailand. The concept of a JDA, according to a Thai academic familiar with border disputes, is the best – if not only – solution to the political difficulties in Thailand surrounding the potential loss of sovereignty. This is because the concept of the JDA does not necessarily mean that Thailand or Cambodia have to formally relinquish claims over territory. Rather the JDA can operate while ongoing issues surrounding demarcation can be discussed separately.

Reprinted from the CLC Asia group

[drake]

Hi, You are all wrong have a look at this first and read about the real reason.......money money oil oil gas gas

I'm a firm believer in 'follow the money' but this oil/gas angle isn't making much sense right now.
KPV issue was filed under MOU 2000 (aka MOU43) land boundary agreement, it paved the way to MOU 2001 (aka MOU44) which is an agreement between theives to, hopefully, divide the spoils in the gulf.
Since the Thais had already shelved MOU44 over a year ago, what is there for them to gain in regard to the gulf demarcation from this skirmish at KPV and the call to scrap MOU43 as well ?

[Absara]

I'm hanging out in a little neighbourhood in the outskirt of BKK.
Apparently, it's full of 'red shirts' and they are all cursing the PM for just about everything and wanting the govt. to go get all the territories back from Cambodia, including KPV.
My neighbour next door is a hard core "yellow shirt" and she's cursing the PM for just about everything and wanting the govt. to go get all the territories back from Cambodia, particularly KPV.

Then, when I talk to 'regular' people they all agree that it's a rigged game with no real meaning though they would like to see KPV officially belonging to Thailand....

Obviously, we don't hang out with the same crowd. The average Joe I talk too seems to have enough of this rigged game, and wants the government to show more teeth dealing with the violence in the South.

If some cavemen (or cavewomen) want those stones at the mountain top so badly, why didn't they take it when they had a chance in 1979? Cambodia was then invaded and occupied by Vietnam, and all the cavemen had to do was to shut all doors to Khmer resistances, and in return Vietnam would sign a treaty or memorandum, whatever you want to call it, recognizing the new Siamese map.

I don't think Thailand is too worry about the IFS as it's trying to get in bed with China - a much bigger fish.
Laos has got squat as far as natural resources and skilled labour, Cambodia is not that much better off.
All three countries are card carrying communists so they might as well hangs together. They might get lucky and comes out better than NAFTA or EU.

That what the Americans said at the beginning of the Indochina war, until they had to ship some fifty thousand body bags home, and pack and leave Saigon in a hurry in 1975.

I was too tactful when I referred to Indochina Federation State (IFS) as a union of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. Blatantly put it, IFS is an annexation of Cambodia and Laos by Vietnam. Go shake hand with Cambodian/Laotian migrant workers, if you’re lucky you find some of them in BKK; and they happily explain to you what IFS is all about. So what this IFS got to do with Thailand? Well, Thailand will have one BIG, POWERFULL and AMBITIOUS neighbour right at her doorstep. Frankly, I sleep much better at night if my neighbours are small, poor and vulnerable. By the way, NAFTA and EU are white man tricks that will never work in Asia, at least during my lifetime.

BUT, there's still a lot of ppl in Cambodia who still remember being occupied by the Vietnamese army and Nationalism is a funny thing.

I completely agree with you that Nationalism is a funny thing. But let me think …. Are you saying that we should count on Cambodian nationalists to resist Vietnamization of their country? Yeah, right! after all the bad publicities and troubles that PAD, TPN and yellow-shirt cohorts have done and are still doing at the border.