Dowery

RE: RE: Dowery

Postby Gina on Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:42 am

Rooster, I appreciate your input in allowing me to look at things from the other side of the colour spectrum. The story you told is unfortunate and no one should deserve such kind of treatment. I'm not on either side and prefer to look at the situation as it happens. I respect your support of Prenuptial agreement despite the fact that it may very well misrepresent the very basic foundation of marriage. Should the marriage be based on the written contract for it to work and for us to live by? I can see the point where prenuptial agreement could be beneficial to both parties if that could provide a form of security or protection if one has decided early to break the vow, but how effective it can truly be in sorting out the ideal candidate. Do we measure the value of men by their possessions and how much money one can provide? What happen to those that can't provide? Are they then be condemed? I agree with you that life is not perfect. Life is full of obstacles. Sometimes struggles are exactly what we need in our life. If we go through life without any obstacles, it would cripple us. We would not be as strong as we could have been. By the way, my life is so far fetched from the fairy tales.
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RE: RE: Dowery

Postby Rooster on Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:42 am

Your fantasies never ceased to amaze me. It does seemed to be the common trace among women. Perhape, somethings in their environments that caused them to think these ways and bring taken advantage by predators. If what you are saying and believing are so truths, then more lighter skin tone and urbanites would be marrying Thai laborers and men from rural areas. Instead, they preferred to marry white foreigners. Or why should you registered your marriage? Marriage certificate is itself a form of contract. Societies and cultures developed for reasons. Remember, we are only experiencing few hundred years of modern western style culture. Do you see what is happening to family units in Thailand and somewhere elses? Anyway prenuptial agreement is for people who have somethings and intelligent people with experiences in relationships. Prenuptial agreement is not for those with not much of anythings or still living in the fantasy world.
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RE: RE: Dowery

Postby Gina on Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:24 pm

Your message appears as if you are attacking me. You said "Your fantasies never ceased to amaze me. It does seemed to be the common trace among women" that's sexual discrimination, Rooster!! Now you are targeting the entire women population!! I can't believe the administrator would allow such kind of remark to be published in this forum. You have your point and I do have mine and again from the very beginning I do respect that. I hope It's not too difficult for you to respect other opinion as well. There is no right or wrong, Rooster, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I believe many out there who have been following this message thread may agree/disagree with what you and I have said. I only entered into this forum just to give my point of view and I do not expect that it will always be correct. I thought this forum is meant for people to share their ideas and not to form the battle ground.
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RE: RE: Dowery

Postby Rooster on Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:40 pm

Gina. Sorry, that you felt that way. No, I am not making person attack against you. I am merely stated my observations and experiences. You have been polluting yourself with too much of the far side feminism. Thai women will not advance socially and economically if they are trying to immitate fell feminise movements that now very much dominated with lesbian agendas. In term of western family values, mainstream family units have reduced to fewer and fewer every years. The western subcultures have become increasingly more dominant every years. It is something that Thais do not need to learn. Yes, it is destroying Thai culture little by little like in Bangkok and other urban areas. Most Thai families do not have proper child rearing and nursuring skills, because they have mixed messages from subcultures and lack of traditional Thai skills themselves. You will not see these types of fantasies with rural girls who daily chores are to feed their families. Where tasks are segregated to each family members according to their sex and age.
The recent news suggested that more and more Thai girls are having sex at younger and younger age, and they are catching STDs' earlier too. In the future, dowery system that is based on the girl's virginity and high moral standards will eventually becoming more and more rarer occasion/event. Many male foreigners from the west, who are living and working, are now trying to corrupt Thai culture by suggesting to Thai girls that dowery system is counter equality; they are promoting premarital sex and co-habilitation. The girlfriend and boyfriend western system where people are having casual sex at the minimum cost to the men. One good example is that western men, who are teaching foreign languages to Thai girls, would engage in sexual activities with their students. It is very rare for Thai male teachers to do it since there are system in place to deal with these Thai teachers. Now, these new generation Thai girls at college level are doing it with their foreign teachers and students for free and casual with impermanent relationship. These western men knew that they would have to go to the brothels like the local for sex if they could find some naive girls to be their girlfriends. So Gina and other Thai girls, all of you do not have to worry about the dowery system or other traditional Thai culture. The Thai urban subculture is growing with rapid pace and influences from young foreigners who are living and working in Thailand. Thai men will have to ask for virginity police if the girl families are asking for dowery, since these Thai girls are not as they used to be....
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RE: RE: Dowery

Postby Gina on Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:05 am

My message may appear as if I'm a faminist. Introspectively I don't think I am. I believe in the equality of all human beings. I am disheartened to see discrimination and social injuctice towards the less fortunate and the minority. I am leaning towards an independent rather than being the extreem leftist or rightist. (I'll vote for Busch though because I do believe Kerry has the tendency to lean on whichever directions the wind blows) Anyway I would just stick to the topic at hand. I believe what you have said is true about the change that is happening now in Bangkok. Years and years of western influence have effected us culturally. More and more young people are in favour of modernisation and frown upon old tradition as being too conservative and impractical. As I've mentioned, I do not object to 'Dowerey' system as long as it's within reason. It's true that money is important to provide security and sustain our livelyhood, but money should not be gained by a marriage of convenience. Financial rewards should come from one own achievement and I believe the probable way to acquire that is through higher education and personal perseverence.
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RE: RE: Dowery

Postby Rooster on Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:54 pm

Hi Talon. I provided you with the wrong information on the weight and value of gold in Thailand. I always think of gold in troy ounce and thought that baht coid weight in gold would be the same as ounce, since the old Thai baht coin was as big as the American silver dollar coin or American Eagle gold coin. The 10 bahts dowry of gold is a little less than 5 troy ounces, approximately. One gold baht is 15.16 grams. A troy gold ounce is 31.103 grams. Therefore, a gold baht weight is equivalent to 0.487 troy ounces. So the October, 2004 value of a troy gold ounce is about $412.00 USD. The 5 troy gold ounces would cost $2,060.00 USD or B82,400.00 Thai Bahts. The gold bar is generally cost less than finished gold jewelries. US, Canadian, Swiss, or S. African gold bar will find better value in Thailand than Thai gold bar, since it is more pure like 99.99%. I was abled to purchase some gold bars from USA last year for $384.00 USD per troy gold ounce.
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Not A Dowery

Postby Ian Beale on Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:10 pm

For a start - Thailand does not have a dowery system. A dowery system is when the family of a daughter pays the man to marry the girl - as in India.
Thailand has the exact opposite - i.e. a bride system.
In both india and Thailand, these systems are both partly cause and effect of each country struggling to run, concurrently, both an advanced capitalist system and a semi-fuedal one.
These different systems of paying for a marriage partner are both partly cause and effect of their economic backwardness, corruption, crime, etc.
But sometimes the partnerships work.
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RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Zemran on Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:21 am

If you trace the word 'dowry' back to its root 'dower' which is the part of the man's estate that the widow is entitled to on his death you can see the origin of the word and its use. So the bride's family want to take care of the money then in time they start to see it as theirs to spend. What word would you use to mean the husband's portion on his marriage? Now that we live in a non sexist world I do not see that it can be wrong to use the word dowry and as dowry is now in common usage with this meaning it must therefore, de facto, be right.
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RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Wiroj on Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:50 am

Ian,
Different applications of Dowery:
1) For Thai men : Dowery has been a historical Thai tradition since Ayuthaya region. Thai men have always been aware that he must be financially well prepared for the money given to the family of a girl who he is going to marry her. The amount of money and gold for dowery can be varied mainly depends on how wealthy the groom is and of course it is also based on the girl's virginity and high moral standard.
2) For Farangs : Most foreigners from the west have questioned and doubts about paying dowery to those Thai girls whom they met and picked from bars and entertainment complex primemarily for sexual relation with payments but ended up marrying them. Even so, dowery is still requested by those girls in wihich the amount of dowery is always over exaggerated to her Farang boy friend's point of view.
These are the two different cases for all to judge.
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RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Rooster on Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:23 pm

To be exact, it is called bride price or bride wealth. However, the modern usages of dowry has became the usages for both systems...i.e. the cost or gift to the family of groom or bride. However, you are incorrect to lump the bride price system in Thailand to other countries like India - India has her own exclusive system. In Thailand, the bride price is both the gift to the bride and to her parents. It is a form of test of manhood when a man is able to take a wife or wives. It is also another form of caste system, which is based on socio-economic status of the male.
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