Dowery

RE: RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Ian on Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:43 pm

Exactly Rooster - it's a form of feudalism.
And that is Thailand's number one problem : Thailand is trying to run a half-capitalist, half feudal system, when global capitalism is becoming ever stronger.
So I suggest you modernise your laws in Thailand : eg. tax farang husbands, rather than stopping them from owning.
The latter damages Thailand - and will damage it more and more.
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RE: RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Rooster on Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:38 am

Well, you are dream of some kind of uniformity like some kind of communita utopia. The western countries have their European cultures. Thailand needs to have our own uniqueness and culture. Thai dowery system is there for a good reason to protect the girls' viginity and their families from male parasites. Thailand and Thais need to learn the best things from foreign countries and not bad things like bad fashions, bad movies, bad cultures, bad habits, bad governments, bad religions, and etc.. It is appeared that you have never participate in the governing processes since you educated comments about Thai laws and taxation. If you want real utopia, you need to advocate for borderless world, no immigration law, freedom of moment, free trade, one world order/government, and I guest that free everythings would also satisfy your needs. Oh, who is going to labor on the land to produce foods, build roads, dig dirt, clean toilets, or do all those things to provide for free services. Oh, It is better to divide the world into two. Where A section is always providing certain services and raiding the B section for free everythings, the government of B section will have to pretend and lie to their citizens that they are good, hard working, and people of the land. Oh, it already happened. The first world is already living off their colonial dividends from the developing world and by exploiting them for slave labors and natural resources too.
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RE: RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Ian Beale on Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:11 pm

Rooster you're the one who sounds communist utopian. Yes - I believe in free trade : free capitalist trade. But at the moment, most of the free is coming from the West, while countries like Thailand keep a highly protected market, of which barring farangs from owning is one aspect.
And bride price / dowery to maintain the girl's virginity. Give me a break ! For many lo-so Thais, it's more like so the families can sell off their daughters. more like it !!
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RE: RE: Not A Dowery

Postby leena on Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:34 pm

This is an interesting Forum. I am a Thai woman born and raised in the US. I'm very well educated, a world traveler, and is married to a Swedish man.

I don't understand this "Dowry" system in Thailand myself. I told my husband not to pay anything because I believe that we should put that money into our future family. My parents didn't like the idea because it made them look bad in their community. I had to explain to them that I do not believe in this "dowry" system. That love and marriage is the bonding of heart and spirit. I'd rather plant a tree or something? I mean I paid my own way through University (with help from scholorships), I found myself a good job and a great life partner. We even paid for our own wedding!

They gave me life out of the humanly urge to procreate and raised me out of love; All that shouldn't need to be re-paid. I would never ask my daughter or son to re-pay me ! That would make me feel as if I gave birth to them to be my retirement fund, and that I dont' really love them just want to use them.

People say well the guy need to give a deposit to make sure that the guy is for real. That he really wants to marry her with good intention. Why on earth would he ask to marry the woman if he's not for real? Why even talk to the woman's parents about marriage if he just wants to sleep with her and dont' really want to marry her? So that does not make sense to me either.

My Thai family from thailand also did not understand why I quit my high paying job to stay home with my kids. They said why didn't I just get a Nanny? Which I tried once but I felt too left out from raising my own child. I wanted to see my kid's development and growth! So with only one income I told them I cannot send them anymore money, and don't ask unless it's life or death..hehehhehe. They were soo upset!
Plus I'm opposed to sending money anyway, I'd rather buy them a house or help them start a business or pay for thier kids schooling direction to the school. But it seems like all they want is money..money..money..money!! "Just send us money and we'll do it/pay for it.." yeah right! I feel like they don't look at me as a family member I'm just a bank who's married to a foreigner!

OH sorry, now I'm just venting.....
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RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Sucha on Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:05 am

I read Rooster’s commenting on Gina on the above and think this man is sexist and arrogant with his one-sided opinions, a lot of times with no proves. The choice of words in his explanations proves that he has had a high education, but the way he expresses it is low and cheap. No need to explain more.

Let’s get back to the subject.

Dowry is not a rule. It’s just a tradition that people have hold from the past, the past that Thailand was (and is) an agricultural society…

When a Thai woman is married, two things happen. One, she moves out of her family. Two, she becomes a member of her husband’s family. This moving in and out doesn’t only mean the bride’s family is losing her as a beloved daughter, but they are also losing one labor that will work in a field. That means everybody in the bride’s family will have to work harder in order to gain the same amount of crops. And in the opposite, the groom’s family gains one more labor.

To be fair, the price of the lost labor needs to be paid.
(Please notice: getting married in this context doesn’t have anything to do with love.)

It is all about economy. The price of the dowry is based on the value of the woman. The strong, smart plus beautiful=high price. Lazy, ugly, and has bad breath=low price. It’s all about demand – supply. It’s that logical. (In a way, I think it’s universal.)

Another reason, agree with Rooster, the man has to prove his manhood that he can take care of his family and has ability to make their (Thai) dream comes true.

With all these reasons, the dowry system existed and worked.

2005, life styles have changed. The woman whom you ask to marry with is no longer a farmer’s daughter. Nobody thinks anymore about the lost of labor in a family. However, the tradition is still in practice (yes, because it is a “tradition.”) It’s not unusual that any tradition that has lost its connection and meaning becomes a nonsense practice—especially when people in the society take advantage of the tradition to feed their greed. Plus today, the value of “goodness” has changed to “richness;” things get messed up like this, it’s easy to see the tradition itself as bad. To me, the tradition isn’t bad, but the way the society has changed and the way people handle it, make it seem bad.

It is up to your judgment, I think. If the tradition makes sense to you, support it (with your good reason.) If it doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t make sense. Nobody can force it to make sense.

In my opinion, culture is an organic thing. It has to change over time by people’s values and lifestyle. Culture has to serve the society’s needs. Now, Thailand is at a turning point of its cultures. There are clashes of cultures everywhere. Old cultures seem to be conflicting with the new. No one to blame. It is the obligation people here have to live with. And, perhaps try to create and adapt the good values as they can do.
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RE: RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Rooster on Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:14 am

Good luck to all the freebee girls. I used to be all liberal and all that modern western ideology. Yes, some of you will ended-up like my sister with two children without any child support from her ex-farang lover. She is lucky, because our family took her back and took care of the children while she straightened out her life. Traditional values and conducts meant somethings. Thanks to modern western fade values, many of my Thai male friends would not have to pay high or none when they got married to these freebee Thai girls since they have associated themselves with foreigners. Yes, these freebee Thai girls still wanted to have big traditional wedding so that they could show off their faces to their friends. All of these freebee Thai girls should feel free to do as they wish, but they should not interfere with others who wished to have Thai traditional values. Oh, all of you need to have good divorce lawyer number handy too. How much would it cost to raise a child and send them to college too? Oh, I am very sexist since I think nature has made men as masculine and women as femiline. There are no sexless society. Yes, some boy-boys and girls-girls would pretend to create sexless society like same sex marriage and other sexless things with government supports.
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RE: RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Aussie Dave on Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:35 pm

ROOSTER >>>>>>>>>>. If your sister is anything like you , its easy to see why she has'nt got a husband anymore !
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RE: RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Ian on Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:59 pm

Rooster - it's a sad story. It's also a result of Thailand being half-way between traditional / fuedal and modern / fully capitalist.
Overall, going back to the past is not much of an answer - though very good your family re-accepted your sister.
Perhaps if her farang husband lived under a more modern system of Thai laws - eg. one which allowed him to own, but taxed him a residency rate - perhaps he would n't have felt your sister simply had her hand in his wallett !
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RE: RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Ian on Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:10 pm

Intelligently said Sucha.
Unfortunately this dowery / bride-price system has also degenerated into something akin to old Siam's system of bonded labour / slavery.
I.e. many, especially rural, Thai men lazily sit around all day doing next to nothing - simply thinking they can sell off their daughters. And that a stupid farang will endlessly pay. Bad luck for them - the modern world does n't work like that !
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RE: RE: Not A Dowery

Postby Rooster on Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:47 am

I hate to tell you this Dave. My sister was all liberal and liberated like any young urban girls. And she did when to American school to get her college education where she met her ex-husband. They got married without informing us and our consensus. He was a sorry individual who had insufficient sexual activity when he was young so he went crazy with all kinds of girls when he was assigned to work in England. I guessed that he wanted to make-up all that he missed when he was a teenager. Oh, he is married now to his old sweet heart from high school by took her from her husband and children. He became a kind of Casanova. He is now depressed since his mama and dada died of cancer. I understand that he has not hold a job for few years now. My niece is now over 18 y/o and have not see a penny from her dad since she was 6 y/o. As for my sister, she is still a single mom and became more conservative now.
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