Am I being careful or unfair ?

[APJ]

Hi to all,

Over the past few years I have read many of the posts offering excellent and sensible advice. This was without realising one day I may appreciate advice myself. I will be entirely honest in the details that follow. I agree with a previous respected poster who talked of 'moulding' his wife into the person he wanted her to be.

I use to live and work in Thailand and met a girl who, I admit, worked bar. (Ok I know what you're thinking....another mug!). Anyway, I had heard and read enough stories from friends and books to be highly aware. She moved in with me and we fell in love. I needed to gain trust in her and gained access to her email account and mobile phone. After a while the calls and emails from ex-customers dried up and she let me contact me them to explain she wasn't working.
We travelled to most countries in SE Asia on holiday and being educated she began to lose the insularity so many Thai's have. Two years ago my job meant that I moved to live in another Asian country, she moved with me and although she naturally misses her home country she is able to compare the advantages and disadvantages of our adopted country with her own. Indeed, after we visited the UK last year she became more able to view Thailand from an outside perpsective and became critical of many aspects of Thai society. She got very well with all my family and we had a great time.
That, for me, was the final proof I needed of the durability of an intended marriage and we agreed to marry this summer. We get on very well, are very close and share the same views and hopes for the future. I am not rich but am comfortable, I have always been faithful to her and her to me. Indeed, I take great pains to show I only want her.

And so to money. Well, money has rarely been an issue for us but suddenly it rears its head like a juggernaut emerging from the fog. During the first year I did help her parents by sending home 7000 baht a month. Occasionally they would ask for a 'gift' of around 50-100,000 baht. Never did I pay this and always my girlfriend has been able to see this from my side, considering their demands as unfair. Since we left Thailand, I have not sent any money to them, although when my girlfriend goes to visit them twice a year she takes a couple of hundred USD.
Then a few months back he asked for an $8000 car. No way. Then he asked me to pay for his wife to have private hospital treatment. This was a tricky one, I was aware it may well be a genuine case ! In the end I said I would pay a bill from a hospital, but would not send money in advance. This was the first refusal that upset my wife and the response was 'then don't bother'.
Now I am aware that being the only earner and having all the money in my name does leave her financially insecure. I could leave her at any time and she would have nothing. But to her credit she has never, despite me suggesting it, asked for a sum of money to sit in her Thai account. She rarely spends money on herself and feels 'guilty' at buying anything using my money. We discussed buying property and agreed we would buy it in her name, but that an equal sum would be kept by me in an offshore account to be solely mine if we parted. We haven't bought yet.
In all, I consider I have balanced my sense of protecting myself pretty well, even to the point of being 'financially unfair' to her.

Then the bombshell hit. Looking ahead to our marriage we discussed the dowry. Her dad wanted a million baht. I laughed. He returned to say he would accept 700,000 plus 5 baht of gold plus 'ongoing support'. It seemed a bit much to say the least. She is currently with them on holiday and to my amazement she is claiming that it is a fair amount, to the point where she won't return unless I agree.
I don't want to lose her and I will respect Thai tradition. For the first time I am now thinking....what the hell am I entering into here ??? Maybe I am too cautious or maybe I am being unfair on her by considering it highly excessive ?

[colin howard]

you should just ask her what as her parents ever done for her , if they had been so good why was she working bar? , it looks to me like you are doing some soul searching , but believe me right is on your side , the dowery is a joke and you should say so , i would just give her a simple ultimatum , NO DOWERY, them or you , i,ve seen it so many times when threats are issued that they are going to leave , were too ,? back to the bar? get a grip!!, i suppose you have read my views on this subject , cos i,ve written plenty, once you cave in to there demands , you might as well go for a walk blind folded on the freeway in bkk, , of course i,m well aware that thai ladys are in extremely short supply and you may take years to replace her, lololol , in closing remember you hold all the aces, so don,t throw away a winning hand , colin .

[colin howard]

hi APJ, why not read "sin sod and in laws" , in "getting married in thailand " then if you wish get back to me, of course the many grovelers may speak of the so called"rules" when marrying a thai lady , all i can say is when YOU pay the money YOU make the "rules" its as simple as that ,and believe me it WORKS, colin .

[Rooster]

AJP. If you are having problem about dealing with her parents, you should appoint and or pay one of your elder Thai friend to do the negotiation for you. According to Thai tradition, it is up to the elderly from both side to negotiate and draw final agreements. It is also depending on the openness of your wedding. If it is private wedding, than there are not much for show. If it is a public wedding, than you have to make a show for her dignity. I think her parents will take all money and gifts. Remember, her parents might not know what she was doing in Bangkok for living that is very common and not a matter of their ignorant. Parents sent their daughters to Bangkok for education and later to work. She could have not telling them the whole truth. If they knew what she was doing before, than they can not make such demands. To be fair, you can just make a single gift to them and no more in the future. Allow her to work or monthly allowance, she can save her own money to send back to her parents herself. Since they wanted a car, you can give them a Tuk-Truck or Tuk Motorcycle-Truck so that they can use this vehicle to make a living and for personal transportation. If she does not have college education, the dowery should not be more than 100,000 baht or a Tuk-Motorcycle-Truck. If she has college education and not a virgin, her dowery is less than 200,000 baht. The bride gifts is for her only in term of gold jewelries, but you can give her IOU since gold is over valued in the current market. Negotiators can make two points 1. allowing her to send home her own money 2. appropriate dowery in her case and situations.

http://www.monikamotors.com/tuk-tuk.html

[robin]

APJ,
Both Colin and Rooster give good advice, in your situation and both might work.
Were it me, I would need to base my decision on several points, the first being that being held for ransom is never a good feature for a continuing relationship. It is doubly bad when both the parents and the girl are doing it. The girl knows what she has in you, but is willing to gamble, lose you or get the money, doesn't sound like love.
Got to ask yourself is 700,000 the value of your relationship? Because, that was obviously her answer. Next is what guarantees do you have that next time she visits it would be another dead water buffalo problem.
Again, if it were me I would walk, this can go no where but down for you. Thais have a very strong sense of family, sometimes to the point of blind irrational loyalty.

[robin]

APJ,
Both Colin and Rooster give good advice, in your situation.
Were it me I would need to base my decision on several points, the first being that being held for ransom is never a good feature for a continuing relationship. It is doubly bad when both the parents and the girl are doing it. The girl knows what she has in you, but is willing to gamble, lose you or get the money.
Got to ask yourself is 700,000 the value of your relationship? Because, that was obviously her answer. Next is what guarantees do you have that next time she visits it would be another dead water buffalo problem.
Again, if it were me I would walk, this can go no where but down for you. Thais have a very strong sense of family, sometimes to the point of blind irrational loyalty.

[Robert]

APJ

I can sympathize with your situation.. Colin's advice to read the posts on Sin Sod is spot on.. I believe somewhere in the posts on Sin Sot a writer said that when a girl comes from the bar she is considered "damaged goods" and no Sin Sod is paid.
Something else you must think about.. If both your wife and her parents are in the greedy/money demand mode, where will it all end?? This may just be the beginning and the demands will get greater and greater until she owns all your property and has all your hard earned money..
It sounds like you have given her a life she can only dream about... If she and her family cannot accept that, perhaps you need to reevaluate your relationship. Better to lose her now than pay and pay and pay and in the end you still lost her.
I really do not see why you have to get a Thai elder to negotiate for you.. You know where that is going to end up.. You certainly are not going to get good unbiased advice.. More than likely the "neutral" Thai negotiator is going to side with your wife and her family.. Who knows? The negotiator may even get a "commission".
Thais need to "un Thai" themselves and look at it from a neutral standpoint.. But don't count on that happening.
It sounds also to me that you have tried to be a good husband and have provided for her and her family quite well. It also appears you are well grounded and know Thai (read greed) culture.
I went through much the same as you are going thru now.. Remained faithful, married, took her around the world, paid money, (I did not buy a house although she wanted me to and I did not pay Sin Sot), got health insurance for her, etc etc...In the end she hit me, threatened my life, and waved a knife at me...
Best of luck to you...
Robert

[APJ]

Firstly, thank you for all your replies, I really appreciate the time you have taken in writing them. There is alot of sense in the replies you have given.
Things have progressed quickly in the time I posted it. I was shocked by the fact that, after 3 years living together, it was the first time money had really been an issue. My concern was how far she agreeed with her dad's demands, given that previously she has been critical of his demands and mentioned them only in passing knowing my response. I have refused to buy either the car or the dowry. Indeed I said the more he asks the less inclined I am to give anything.

And then tonight the truth emerged. He has effectively told her that she HAS to leave me and that if she doesn't he will disown her. She admitted that even if I paid the money now it wouldn't make any difference, her father is adamant that she must leave me and told her to go back to a bar and find a richer man. Words cannot express the hatred I feel for this man. She now needs to chose and there is little I do can but wait for her decision.

[colin howard]

sorry if i seem a bit cynical , but i,m sure this is just a plot to get your money , you have been together 3 years and all of a sudden he wants her to get a richer man!!, and anyway if she loves you and comes back to you what can her father do , send a hit squad!!, i,m sure she has a loving and caring family thats why she worked the bar and no doubt sent them money , i truly feel that whatever the outcome you will lose if you cave in , if you just say to her ok do what your father tells you and leave it at that in a short while the reverse gear will come into play , all you have to do is stand firm because you hold all the aces, best of luck, colin .

[robin]

APJ,
You are the decision maker in your life. Are you willing to give up your vote on how your life will play out? Most successful relationships have a deal where each player gets a vote in the direction they are headed. Any no vote cancels the election. This is an important point in your life, don't leave it to a one vote election, hers. She already told you what her price was, now you are back in negotiations.
I will be cruel here, remember when you first met her, her dad was ok with a 500 baht bar fine and 2000 baht for long time, that works out to 6000 a month and 72000 a year, now they want 700,000 for short time.
If it were me I would walk, as Colin says there may be at least one other woman who might just like what you have to offer without all of these qualifications. In the US we call that baggage.