Tourism what are they thinking?

[MekhongKurt]

I first ran into the 150 baht fee only fairly recently -- there are several banks' ATM machines grouped together near my apartment, and it wasn't until I tried one I hadn't used in awhile (with my U.S. ATM card) that I got the notice the withdrawal would cost me 150 baht -- and that's on top of the US$3.00 my U.S. bank charges me after the 5th transaction each statement month. In my case, the fees combined work out to about US$7.30.

That wouldn't be so bad IF my U.S. bank didn't also limit me to a maximum of US$500.00 in a single withdrawal.

I find it interesting that Mastercard is denying any increase in its fees; haven't seen anything about VISA, however.

It is irksome the way this has evolved. I remember when ATM's first appeared in the U.S>; many banks touted them as a way to save money for themselves -- and, therefore, customers -- by enabling them to reduce staff. "Phase II" was to start charging a service fee in certain cases if you wanted/needed to speak with a real person. Finally came fees for using ATN's of other banks just to use the ATM card. I guess the next step will be to charge a fee for any transaction at an ATM, including the bank's own.


I recognize banks have to recover their costs, at the very least. But does it *really* cost 150 baht to access the international -- and Internet-based -- banking network?

[LAGuyinBKK]

To try to set the record straight on a few things...

1. The 150 baht fee (roughly $4.25 U.S.) began in mid-April on ATM withdrawals made only using foreign debit or credit cards. The fee is a flat fee, meaning it is charged by the Thai bank regardless of how small or large an amount of cash is withdrawn. The same fee is not being applied if someone (Thai or farang) is using a Thai bank ATM card.

2. Prior to mid-April, BKK Bank charged no fee in the Bangkok area for ATM withdrawals made using foreign cards. And Siam Commercial Bank had long charged no fee, but only earlier this year on its own imposed a 20 baht per withdrawal fee. Both BKK Bank and SCB now are among those charging the 150 baht fee per withdrawal using foreign ATM cards.

3. Many, but not all, Thai banks are charging this 150 baht fee at present. Based on the experience of many users, as of early May, the following banks are not charging this fee at any of their ATMs: Kasikorn Bank (green), Bank of Ayudhya (yellow) and Government Savings Bank (pink). Some have also reported that UOB (United Overseas Bank) is not charging the fee, though I can't personally attest to that.

4. From all indications, the fee was not the result of any government tax or policy, but rather, a business decision sanctioned by the trade group known as the Thai Bankers Assn., which has as its members virtually all of the larger banks in Thailand. From all indications, however, the individual banking companies have the freedom (business discretion) to decide whether or not they actually want to charge this fee. Most are. Some are not.

5. There was an article in the Bangkok Post recently quoting a top official of the Thai Bankers Assn. as saying the group would reconsider the amount of the fee in the wake of the major negative reaction it had received. From the sound of things, it appeared any reconsideration would be of the amount of the fee, not the notion of the fee itself on foreign card ATM withdrawals.

It is indeed ironic, that at a time when Thailand's tourism industry is suffering a major decline and the government supposedly is spending billions of baht to try to bolster it, that a major segment of the Thailand business community (banking) comes out with a very excessively priced, discriminatory and tourist unfriendly measure such as this.

For those old enough to remember, when banks first introduced ATMs, people/customers were encouraged to use them because, of course, an automated machine can handle transactions much more cheaply that a paid bank staff person inside a branch. So ATM machines were/are indeed a cost saving measure for the banks, compared to in-branch, in person transactions.

But now, in their infinite wisdom, the TBA decides to encourage its Thai bank members to launch a 150 baht fee that is probably double the $1 or $2 (35 to 70 cents U.S.) amount that some banks in the west and Europe charge per withdrawal made using cards other than their own. Of course, many banks in the west and Europe still charge no fees for ATM withdrawals period. Is this really how Thailand wants to encourage tourism to the country???

Perhaps the Thai banking industry, and society at large, need to consider what the real costs will be if the country continues a variety of measures and actions (visa restrictions, civil disturbances and violence, dual pricing policies, environmental pollution, and this latest banking fee) that make Thailand increasingly unfriendly to visitors.

[villager]

Since we're in "tourist bashing" mode why doesn't Thai Immigration take a leaf out of Indonesia's book
The Indonesian's charge for a "visa on arrival" US$10 for if you're staying less than 7 days or US$25 for 30 days
This means if you book a week's holiday in Bali (arrive on Saturday, leave on Saturday) you're actually there for 8 days and they get US$25 (neat trick eh )
Forget all these FREE 15 day and 30 day visas, "there's money in them thar hills, lot's of it"
I reckon THB500 for 15 days and THB1,000 for 30 days ought to do the trick After all they raised the overstay rate from THB200 to THB500 per day but no one wants to stay any more so charge them for coming in (transit passengers should also be made to pay if they set foot on Thai land, it's very precious and reserved for Thais only)
Also these new charges would fall in line with the THB2,300 for a 90 day visa and THB5,500 for a One Year visa
I have made further recommendations on the "new visa rules for foreigners" thread with regard to other requirements for One Year visa applicants
Now I'm really beginning to think like a THai Immigration official

Thai Immigration official eh, dream on Pappy, the 15 and 30 day stamp you receive on your passport on arrival into Thailand either by land or Air are NOT Visa,s , this is a very wide misconception by many arrivee,s into Thailand, all tourist visa,s are for 60 day,s and can be extended for another 30 days without leaving the country for 1,900 baht.

[capealava]

There were a few items in Postbag about some fee or other connected to ATM transactions and I ignored them as irrelevant, but my assistant was absent today due to the holiday, etc, so I tried out the ATM for myself.

The surcharge was a mere 150 baht and I felt truly privileged to ease the burdens, in my own small way, of hard-working Thai bankers who need to keep ledgers straight, floors polished, etc.

For those farangs who consider the fee excessive, I suggest taking out more money at one time and thus reducing the overall fees paid; for instance, 40,000 or 50,000 baht at a time. You see, there are practical solutions to these mundane problems in life if we just stop and think them through.

EL RESIDENTE

This was post was placed in the Bangkok post Postbag. Who ever this person is seems to need an assistant so he probably does not live in Thailand on a more or less fixed income. My USA bank only allows 17,000 baht withdrawals per day. How many people in Thailand keep 50,000 baht in there homes or wallet. This post was completely unhelpful and actual a bit absurd. And why was in placed in the more prominent Postbag feature of the Bangkok Post, instead of here where they maybe be some rebuttal.

[Git]

I noticed we now have pool going on a comparison of ATM fees in Europe, can't speak to that I never paid more the $1.50 for an ATM usage in the states. Never at a bank where I had an account. Had they done somehting like that doubt anyone would have said a word. But $4.50 is usury. For the gentleman who gets 50K at a time congradulation, not everyone can do that. I can 15 K at a time, transfer 100K a month. $31.50 a month to bring my money in here an spend it here. Mind you they are still taking a pecentage on the rare if exchange just like they have been.

Now I will cahnge my accounts around adn do something differentadnI want be pyin Atm fees, but we are not all on the same boat.

I jink they problem comes in when single out a paricular group of people, tiam after time. Then tell then you a good host and want them to visit. I noticed an article yesterday wherein it said the commercail banks were going to be more selective in lending and rely on increased usage fees. That one I think will it the Thais. So they tightening lending and gaining inceased fee so wher is tht money going to. I thought originally that it would be used to make loans and support the economy, It woudl appaer that I was worng.

We've been told all along the banks are solid here, so what is the purpose in the rate increase.?

At some point they have to realize they are pricing themselves out of the markets. Pigs form Vietnam, cancelled rice deal cause he prices were to high. They are really developing the wrong reputation, if the want to grow they have to compete in the world market these days. They have blamed the reduction on tourist on avery political event that has happened and lets face t thats far from over. What they seem to be missing if yuor worker in the staes and are facing yuor own economic downturn you really need a big incenive to pay for a flight to Thailand for your vacaion. When there are so many venue that yuo can just drive to. Same fro the rest of he world a well, this is not the only vacation spot available Today the normal person has to price conciouss. In creaed fees don't help and unless I'm missing somthing only one small group is getting the benefit. I don't see where it is being passed down to he common people who need relief from losing jobs.

I can afford $4.50, I can't accept being treated differently, because I look like an easy touch. If for one ,minuete I thought it was helping the people of Thailand, all the people not just one segment I would have never had said a word. But that does not appear to be the intent.

My message to TBA think this through, your harming yourself. We can find other ways to get money here. Yuo trat us fairly adn you will coninue earning money from devices that require little labor to maintain adn increae yuo profit ration. Keep doing this and yuo will lose what you had. You want to raise ATM fees like this are yuo raising the guards pay who service them? I doubt it.

Prove up a seven fold increase in your operating cost on these machines and I will shut my mouth. I mean prove it don't just say it anyone. You have caused me and many othes to doubt you now.

Does anyone realize that at one time we had interst nbearing accounts available to us for he 800K we is in thee banks to keep immigratiion happy. That was changed and many too excess money into Singapore where they wu ould be paid interest on their money. So what did Thailand gain not a darn thing., people maintain minimums to meet immigration needs the other funds Thailand lost. Tomorrow will come and Thailand will need to compete then just as much a today. Ok I make a few changes and I'm back to no ATM fee, I have already told two different friends that are coming in this month to get their money out of country and bring it with them to avoid this. The world and this world economy is a very small place today.

[Ian]

To try to set the record straight on a few things...

1. The 150 baht fee (roughly $4.25 U.S.) began in mid-April on ATM withdrawals made only using foreign debit or credit cards. The fee is a flat fee, meaning it is charged by the Thai bank regardless of how small or large an amount of cash is withdrawn. The same fee is not being applied if someone (Thai or farang) is using a Thai bank ATM card.

2. Prior to mid-April, BKK Bank charged no fee in the Bangkok area for ATM withdrawals made using foreign cards. And Siam Commercial Bank had long charged no fee, but only earlier this year on its own imposed a 20 baht per withdrawal fee. Both BKK Bank and SCB now are among those charging the 150 baht fee per withdrawal using foreign ATM cards.

3. Many, but not all, Thai banks are charging this 150 baht fee at present. Based on the experience of many users, as of early May, the following banks are not charging this fee at any of their ATMs: Kasikorn Bank (green), Bank of Ayudhya (yellow) and Government Savings Bank (pink). Some have also reported that UOB (United Overseas Bank) is not charging the fee, though I can't personally attest to that.

4. From all indications, the fee was not the result of any government tax or policy, but rather, a business decision sanctioned by the trade group known as the Thai Bankers Assn., which has as its members virtually all of the larger banks in Thailand. From all indications, however, the individual banking companies have the freedom (business discretion) to decide whether or not they actually want to charge this fee. Most are. Some are not.

5. There was an article in the Bangkok Post recently quoting a top official of the Thai Bankers Assn. as saying the group would reconsider the amount of the fee in the wake of the major negative reaction it had received. From the sound of things, it appeared any reconsideration would be of the amount of the fee, not the notion of the fee itself on foreign card ATM withdrawals.

It is indeed ironic, that at a time when Thailand's tourism industry is suffering a major decline and the government supposedly is spending billions of baht to try to bolster it, that a major segment of the Thailand business community (banking) comes out with a very excessively priced, discriminatory and tourist unfriendly measure such as this.

For those old enough to remember, when banks first introduced ATMs, people/customers were encouraged to use them because, of course, an automated machine can handle transactions much more cheaply that a paid bank staff person inside a branch. So ATM machines were/are indeed a cost saving measure for the banks, compared to in-branch, in person transactions.

But now, in their infinite wisdom, the TBA decides to encourage its Thai bank members to launch a 150 baht fee that is probably double the $1 or $2 (35 to 70 cents U.S.) amount that some banks in the west and Europe charge per withdrawal made using cards other than their own. Of course, many banks in the west and Europe still charge no fees for ATM withdrawals period. Is this really how Thailand wants to encourage tourism to the country???

Perhaps the Thai banking industry, and society at large, need to consider what the real costs will be if the country continues a variety of measures and actions (visa restrictions, civil disturbances and violence, dual pricing policies, environmental pollution, and this latest banking fee) that make Thailand increasingly unfriendly to visitors.

this is an interesting contribution and pretty well sums up my feelings. I am currently exploring a different approach. Some of you have heard of Paypal, there is an English equivalent called Moneybookers, I belong to both, originally for the simple reason that when in Thailand my English bank will not accept instructions to send funds to my Thai bank.
However I noticed the immediate benefit in terms of fees, Paypal charged around 1 Pound per transaction and Moneybooker 30 pennies, very different from Bank fees of 22 Pounds or Western Union 14 Pounds. Now there is even better reason to use Moneybookers, I use them to send money to Thailand and use my Thai ATM card.

Let me explain how the system works. I register either my British bank account, Mastercard or Maestro card with them, or any combination of these. They make a small claim of an unknown amount to yourself, around 2 pound but a strange amount, say 1.73 pounds. You tell them how much they took and this verifies you. You then set up a withdrawal account, this is my Thai account.

Now suppose I want to send 1000 pounds to thailand, I upload the money to Moneybookers, they have an office in Thailand and this office has a bank account also in Thailand. The Office in England instructs the office in Thailand, the office in Thailand in Thailand instructs their Thai bank to transfer the Baht equivalent to my Thai Bank. Naturally I have to pay the exchange rate fee but this would apply to any method. The actual transaction cost me 30 pence.

You might say where is the profit for them? Well most people leave a float in their account, I usually keep about 30 to 100 Pounds, plus like Paypal you can use them for online shopping and this generates revenue from the seller.

[villager]

Hey IAN, it looks the "biz " to me i,ve just sent my eldest daughter the link , thanks for the info.

[Ian]

Hey IAN, it looks the "biz " to me i,ve just sent my eldest daughter the link , thanks for the info.

It is a bit complicated to set up cos of security checks etc but once set up is a doddle. Let me know how it goes.

[Git]

In all fairness I think it important ackowledge the other point of view. But this is where I disagree with them one ATM charges in my country are not 4.29 cents per transaction as they were here today. Secondly the banks have always made a percentage based on the rate of exchange, the fee is addition to that. Third Thailand directly benefits from every dollar earned somewhere else and the spent here. This is a bad business practise that only serves the interest of one specific group and it does not benefit Thailand. ATMs are not the cheapest method to transfer money, there are other ways that are more efficient and cost effective. Anyone who has been here for any length time has learned that, so in the end the only thing they will see is money from the tourist sector who attendence seems to be falling rapidly. Kind of shooting yourself in the foot.

Convinent yes they were but no more convinent then just using your Thai account. So from whom are they really going to be getting this money from they very people they spends billions on trying attract here. I would think that would not be very good advertising but then again I'm not a banker. Ask the hotels what they think is this a good deal for them how about the tour companies good image for them.

Local banks defend foreign ATM fees
Fund-transfer firms charge more
By: SOMRUEDI BANCHONGDUANG
Published: 11/05/2009 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: Business
Despite recent fee increases, ATMs are still the cheapest, most convenient way to access foreign bank accounts from Thailand, according to local bankers.


Using ATMs is still the easiest means for foreign cardholders to get cash, say local bankers.
Since last month, Thai banks have imposed a 150-baht transaction fee for ATM withdrawals from overseas accounts. Bankers say the fees cover transaction costs charged by network providers MasterCard Worldwide and Visa Worldwide.

Adisorn Sermchaiwong, an executive vice-president at Siam Commercial Bank, said that even with the new transaction charges ATMs remain the most convenient and lowest-cost option for international fund transfers.

"The fees are in line with those charged worldwide, and also in line with the higher operating cost carried by local banks," he said.

Over recent years, local banks have raised their fee-based income by increasing charges for several services including domestic ATM withdrawals and transfers, paying utility fees and other account services.

Local bankers also claim that transaction costs imposed by international issuer banks, after being absorbed for years by local banks, are now simply being passed on to customers.

"A charge of 150 baht is equal to around 4. The rate charged should not have a significant impact on customers, especially if you consider the convenience of being able to access more than 10,000 ATMs around the country," Mr Adisorn said.

And compared with the alternatives, ATMs remain significantly cheaper.

Fund transfer services such as Western Union and MoneyGram impose significantly higher charges for transfers.

Transferring 20,000 baht from the US to Thailand through MoneyGram, for instance, would cost $15, or 2.5% of the total cost of $597.50, according to MoneyGram's website and based on an estimated exchange rate of 34.334 baht to the dollar.

Western Union charges 1,450 baht for transfers from 20,000 to 25,000 baht, a charge of nearly 6%.

The advantage of both MoneyGram and Western Union is that recipients do not need a local bank account.

A cheaper option, but significantly less convenient, is to cash a foreign bank demand draft at a local bank. Fees range from 100 to 150 baht per transaction. Traveller's cheques are another option, although exchange rates may be less favourable than other options.

For larger transactions between banks, direct fund transfers through SWIFT, the global banking network, are preferred. Siam Commercial Bank charges a 0.25% fee of the transfer amount, with a minimum fee of 200 baht and a maximum of 500 baht.

But fund transfers require a recipient to have a domestic bank account, which under central bank regulations requires the possession of a work permit.

Tohphan Tuchinda, head of corporate affairs at Citi Thailand, describes ATMs as still the most convenient means for foreign cardholders to access cash.

"Other fund transfer channels also impose charges, and sometimes require official documents to comply with regulations imposed by financial institutions and the central bank," he said.

In any case, the Thai Bankers Association is reviewing the recent fee hike for ATM withdrawals in light of complaints by expatriates.

Bangkok Bank senior vice-president Teera Aphaiwongse said the bank would be willing to cut its charges for foreign cardholders if MasterCard Worldwide and Visa Worldwide were also willing to lower their interchange fees.

[pachangamac042]

Local banks defend foreign ATM fees
Fund-transfer firms charge more
By: SOMRUEDI BANCHONGDUANG
Published: 11/05/2009 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: Business
Despite recent fee increases, ATMs are still the cheapest, most convenient way to access foreign bank accounts from Thailand, according to local bankers.

...

But fund transfers require a recipient to have a domestic bank account, which under central bank regulations requires the possession of a work permit.

Ups, nobody ever told me that. I have got two bank accounts in Thailand, but never had a work permit.