Future of ISSAN

[elisabeth]

I just signed the rules for this message board to get the account to post. This was part of it:

You agree not to use language that abuses or discriminates on the basis of race, religion, nationality, gender, sexual preference, age, religion, and disability.
You agree not to threaten or abuse other persons with defamatory, condescending, foul, vulgar language.

Now reading the posts it looks we are confining into these two, a symptom that maybe there is objective discrimination.
Lets be clear, the tools were not invented in Thailand. They were/are the same - all over the world - for ex- agricultural areas : A policy promoting low standard of education, lack of infrastructural investments, stereotyping of ethnic groups. You can think of the cotton belt in the USA; the south of Italy; Colombia, the Balkans etc etc.

History tells us that only if the elective power of these groups become important the economic opportunities had started to pure to them. I think this is the behind the scene antagonism of the so called elite and the rural poor, a main driver of seemingly chaotic Thai politics in the last 5 years.

The important thing is to look at these things in perspective. No one is in the position of giving lectures:
The Elite with a dominant position in choosing the distribution of wealth which is clearly on its favor and does not resemble to any European country they inspire to;
The indigned foreigners : there is even human slave sex trafficking from the balkans in Europe under the eyes of EU militia.
The Issan guys on lao khao.

Clearly the only way to make a change is some kind of redistribution of resources, regional economic integration with Lao and Vietnam, increased social programs, pension? , incentive to voluntary work etc.
From an economic point of view Thailand is not in the hands of multinational companies so most of the benefit from increasing aggregate domestic demand induced by social programs would remain in the country. Something to think about seriously when export is declining rapidly because of the economic crisis and we are coming from 15 years of over investment in means of production in Asia. It could also use its social and economic know how in the region to its benefit.

From a cultural point of view the merit making mechanism should be extend somehow not only to include family and religion but to help discharge other social functions, health care, education. A sole economic answer will not suffice.

The whole world is entering into a difficult period and Thai politics should put behind its divides to start a profound reflection. How to build on the countries real moral strengths to guarantee social stability and some prosperity even in the worst case in which the consumer oriented western copycat incentives given to the people would cease to work ?
Otherwise it will be difficult to post under the aforementioned rules of this journal on many-many more arguments in a couple of years.

[Sean Moran]

... Clearly the only way to make a change is some kind of redistribution of resources, regional economic integration with Lao and Vietnam, increased social programs, pension? , incentive to voluntary work etc.
From an economic point of view Thailand is not in the hands of multinational companies ...

So true, and welcome to the forum, Elisabeth.

Do you reckon that some kind of essential change from the "multinational" style towards the regional and ultimately local government and economic systems might be a catalyst for such adaptations in the pipeline of democratic possibilities?

[bolt451]

I am one of those so called stupid farang who has a isaan girlfriend, which as someone described in an early post as someone who has bought love and a ready made servant. STEREOTYPE

All isaan girls are bar girls STEREOTYPE

All isaan men spend all day drinking STEREOTYPE

Please can we not pigeon hole every group of people into one neat box. I love my girlfriend for who she is and would not change her in any way. She may not have a high level of education and yes I met her in a bar environment. She is not my servant and a ready made wife. She is an individual, a person of high moral standards and strong family values.

Her family and friend work hard and are not all alcoholics. Yes, Isaan and Thailand in general has social problems. I do feel Isaan is a little forgotten and many Bangkok Thais look down on isaan people.

However, the problems discussed in this forum are a result of hundreds of years of Thai culture and circumstance. Not to be changed in five minutes. I urge you as a farang to look at your own culture in your home country. Is everything there perfect? I doubt it. In my country teenagers are killing each other, have the same lack of education and family values are a thing of the past.

Having lived in Isaan, yes I do worry about the future of the young. there are not many opportunities to better yourself. However, I think alot can be learnt from these people. Family and buddhist values create a safe and loving environment for many children. Which is a good start in life.

It is not right to blame Isaan people for the problems of Thailand. They have very little say in politics and law making. They just get by with the little they have.

Of course they are bad isaan people, but that is true of all areas of global society.

If Isaan people had more opportunity then maybe we would not see so many Isaan bar girls in the tourist areas of thailand.
I for one feel priviledged to have met my wonderful girlfriend and her family.

[Sean Moran]

Mrs Na from Changwat Surin.

[jack the bear]

Hello Mr Bolt

I read your post with great enjoyment. Consider yourself as a person who gave respect and love to another person without turning her in a servant, slave or ready made wife as some cynical posters wrote. Be happy that you saw a side of Thailand that many of them never saw and never will because of their lack to adapt or respect. I like to add a few more personal comments and I will try to avoid stereotyping.

Like you I am a stupid farang helping / sponsoring one Issan friend for two years now. She too came out of a bar environment. This stupid farang helped her get back to Issan and pick up school again.Why some readers might ask. Out of pity seeing how she was kicked out by a *lovely * farang bar owner. Some might say yes of course but maybe you wanted to take advantage after all. Or perhaps make her your servant or ready made wife. Sorry to be honest the day I helped her the word relationship was not in my book. Feel free to think that way if you wish but I guess then you are indeed stereotyping. I only know I never forget the expression on her face when she had the airplane ticket back to Issan in her hand. Far more happiness than pretending to be a gunslinger on soi cowboy. I leave that to the cowpokes or slowpokes, I don t know.

Being partly dyslexic it was very difficult for her to read. But to my amazement her English was far above average in speaking. It was not the English usually learned at a bar. So I asked her how you learn English so well. It turned out when she was younger she had to guide her brother to school and wait until school finished to pick him up. By waiting outside in the hall she heard the teacher speak English. Out of boredom killing time she started to repeat and learn by ear. Amazing but true because later when visiting her in Issan I met this famous teacher. She confirmed the story and even showed her efforts to teach children English. Quite promising. Maybe an exception but I hope more an example for a prospering future.

Since then by visiting her and her family many times in Issan I learned a lot about thai traditions and family patterns without stereotyping. Of course you see the good and bad sides of the system. Only you experience it yourself and have every opportunity to learn. Far more revealing then anything else. I saw good and bad people.The hard working and the lazy ones. The faithful and the butterflies. Some were thai , some were not. Realizing that change will come slowly. And seeing how other thais or farang sometimes looked down on this part of thailand. Forgetting that Issan can make the difference in the future given the right opportunities.

But in europe I see the same people.Maybe less worries about family .Only with one big exception. Most of my friends here feel the constant urge to give their view about for example Thailand. Many of them have never been there or perhaps one time in Pattaya. Still they talk like being experts. I only smile at their views. Like the experts I saw on my first trip in Pattaya bragging about being there 365 days in a year and their mongering adventures. Or how they cheated their ex wife or business partner and got away with it. Feeling sorry for newbies like me who came out of eurodisney and letting me feel every time to get a life. Sad that most of these lovely experts are in fact partly responsible for destroying a whole generation coming straight out of Issan. The only opportunity these youngsters had was being a plaything for a bunch of sharks. Almost like fattening frogs for snakes.

So let me be a stupid farang that gave another person a little future and some happiness without asking her to become a puppet on a string. At least one person lucky to get an opportunity.

I am one of those so called stupid farang who has a isaan girlfriend, which as someone described in an early post as someone who has bought love and a ready made servant. STEREOTYPE

All isaan girls are bar girls STEREOTYPE

All isaan men spend all day drinking STEREOTYPE

Please can we not pigeon hole every group of people into one neat box. I love my girlfriend for who she is and would not change her in any way. She may not have a high level of education and yes I met her in a bar environment. She is not my servant and a ready made wife. She is an individual, a person of high moral standards and strong family values.

Her family and friend work hard and are not all alcoholics. Yes, Isaan and Thailand in general has social problems. I do feel Isaan is a little forgotten and many Bangkok Thais look down on isaan people.

However, the problems discussed in this forum are a result of hundreds of years of Thai culture and circumstance. Not to be changed in five minutes. I urge you as a farang to look at your own culture in your home country. Is everything there perfect? I doubt it. In my country teenagers are killing each other, have the same lack of education and family values are a thing of the past.

Having lived in Isaan, yes I do worry about the future of the young. there are not many opportunities to better yourself. However, I think alot can be learnt from these people. Family and buddhist values create a safe and loving environment for many children. Which is a good start in life.

It is not right to blame Isaan people for the problems of Thailand. They have very little say in politics and law making. They just get by with the little they have.

Of course they are bad isaan people, but that is true of all areas of global society.

If Isaan people had more opportunity then maybe we would not see so many Isaan bar girls in the tourist areas of thailand.
I for one feel priviledged to have met my wonderful girlfriend and her family.

[pachangamac042]

Dear bolt451 and jack the bear

your stories are so boring and do not sell. Please be not offended, I will explain myself.

There are men, who come to Thailand and make “bad” experiences with bar girls. Some of this men are just too wet behind their ears, and they do not know and realize how the red light business works. They get cheated and bs for their ignorance. Those stories do sell and are the stories which fill books and many conversation hours in beer bars.

Then there are other men here, men who were never able to have a decent relationship in their lives, most probably because of their characters and mentality. They come to Thailand just to get drank every day and get laid when ever they wish it, without need of compromise. This men, do not want to see a happy relationship between a foreigner and a Thai lady for jealousy, because they will never be able to buy such a honest relationship. They can not buy love and that frustrates them.

Then they are other men, who come to Thailand and fall in love, to a honest girl, and it does not matter were she works. They decide to live their live with that lady and maybe even marry her. They may live happy together for years, but you will not hear or read about those happy stories, because they do not sell or people just do not go around telling their story.

There are just too many clichés about Thailand, or I-Saan, but as I sad in an earlier post, I-Saan is like everywhere, there is good and bad, happiness and sadness, sunny days and rainy days, just like everywhere.

To both of you guys, enjoy your live with your ladies and ignore the ones who speak bad about everything. They are not worth it.

[Sean Moran]

It's about the girl dressed in blue from Si Saket. I'll add to this a little later after having thought it through on what to say and how to give her the respect she deserves. Her life was taken not long after that photograph.


---o0o---

The KMS (Karaoke Mai Sanuk) was a magical place in 2005. In Mabkha, about a mile up 3191 from the lights as 36. She can't login to correct my assumptions anymore, but I have no doubt that she was under 18 then. Sixteen or seventeen I can't be sure, but she was a youngster, just out of school.

She and Mrs Na knew each other from high school back in Surin/Si Saket - distant cousins or something like that. That's how she got her first job on the way to Pattaya at the KMS. She only got off the bus about two weeks before I took off for Chanthaburi. I never saw her again.

---o0o---

The reasons behind that fateful decision will never be known now. Two possibilities still come to mind. One was that her boyfriend found a job up in Sri Racha, so it may have been a commuter problem on their days off work. No shortage of karaoke bars in Sri Racha though.

The other possibility may have been the boredom of Mabkha at night, which is how the KMS earned its name. I'd stop off there after dinner between around 8 and 9 around five nights a week, and half the time there were no other patrons, and apparently it wasn't guaranteed to pick up later in the evening except on weekends. I don't know how the pay-structure worked, but at least half the time there were five staff on at 19:00 and not a single customer by midnight. Whether it was the money or the excitement or both or neither, these might have contributed to her chosen move. Perhaps she'd still be alive today if she'd stayed at KMS, or maybe not.

---o0o---

I've heard the story twice from different sources now. I was actually couped up in hospital around the time it happened, and only first heard of it months later. At first I thought it was Nim from Buriram, (2nd from left in photo). It was someone looking at that exact photo that told me. Either just as tragic. Jealous boyfriend murder suicide was what they reported. Who knows what led to it?

All I know is that KMS was a magical place in 2005. Not everywhere is the same.

[jack the bear]

Hello Mr pachangamac

Thanks for your nice reply. No I'm not offended. You explained it all so clear to us. Why should I ? You leave me no choice but to accept how boring my life is. Like all the other experts I met in the past always quoting get a life. Do I mind ? No I only ask myself what kind of person is mr pachangamac to write something like this. A compassionate understandable respectful person? No I'm afraid not. More a statue on a forum. Nothing more , nothing less. Yes it sells and if selling is the most important to you then you hit the jackpot yourself whenever you post.

Do not worry I know this business very well. I have seen the dark side of that road. It gave me a lifelong hate against rats who let us all believe their are honest businessmen running a beer bar or go go club. To be honest no country needs trash like that. I cannot blame the thais for taking advantage on ignorant farangs as you call them. The whole club system leaves them no choice. A good learning school in exploiting run by the best teachers in the world. Riff raff that cannot fit in any society in the west. Yes a cliche but far more worse imo then Issan.

Maybe drinking hours with trash like that is exciting to you. Listening to their stories how stupid ignorant farangs got screwed by them or their working staff too . I guess these stories would sell in your world .Of course because they are based on gossip,envy or lack of compassion. Yes to ease your mind you can call it sensational. Unfortunately I don't work for El Pais so sorry that I have to disappoint you again. I'm shure Udon thani offers new exciting experiences. The day/night plaza just waits for you.

Personally I think you don't care for any other person. Otherwise you would not have written a post like this. I hope you realize that yourself. Not that you hurt or angered me. I've learned to ignore knowing it is a waste of time. No I'm just curious why you write like that. What are you proving by posting on this forum? I think we all would like to know. Tell us for example why you left Spain and became a thai expert. It might be very exciting. Tell us why you feel the need to judge on people you don't know.

Only I am afraid taking your advice serious I indeed will have to ignore you in the future. Good for you don't you think.
And remember pachangamac: bad karma always gets you in the end.

Cheers

Dear bolt451 and jack the bear

your stories are so boring and do not sell. Please be not offended, I will explain myself.

There are men, who come to Thailand and make “bad” experiences with bar girls. Some of this men are just too wet behind their ears, and they do not know and realize how the red light business works. They get cheated and bs for their ignorance. Those stories do sell and are the stories which fill books and many conversation hours in beer bars.

Then there are other men here, men who were never able to have a decent relationship in their lives, most probably because of their characters and mentality. They come to Thailand just to get drank every day and get laid when ever they wish it, without need of compromise. This men, do not want to see a happy relationship between a foreigner and a Thai lady for jealousy, because they will never be able to buy such a honest relationship. They can not buy love and that frustrates them.

Then they are other men, who come to Thailand and fall in love, to a honest girl, and it does not matter were she works. They decide to live their live with that lady and maybe even marry her. They may live happy together for years, but you will not hear or read about those happy stories, because they do not sell or people just do not go around telling their story.

There are just too many clichés about Thailand, or I-Saan, but as I sad in an earlier post, I-Saan is like everywhere, there is good and bad, happiness and sadness, sunny days and rainy days, just like everywhere.

To both of you guys, enjoy your live with your ladies and ignore the ones who speak bad about everything. They are not worth it.

[bolt451]

To jack the bear

Thank you for your post. it's nice to know someone can take the good things about Thailand and adapt and learn about your adopted country. I too have met many 'experts'. Many, in fact, in own country who have never been to the kingdom themselves. Everyone thinks I'm crazy but i'm pretty thick skinned and i know what i'm doing is right for me.

take care

To pachangamac042

Sorry my friend, I didn't realise I was writing a book.
I'm not trying to sell my story, just live it.

cheers

[jack the bear]

Hello Mr Bolt

Thanks for your reply. Like you I live my story. Never wanted to sell any story . I learned a lot by trial and error learning to adapt and accept. For me the background or education of my friend is of no importance. The same goes for all the expertise by pachangamac's of this world . Most of them never learned to clean up their own backyard. Bad for this Mr Tejero he did not realize that. I guess he is very good in selling stories looking at how many posts he made since becoming a member. Only I'm puzzled by one thing. The more a person posts , the more he sits home. I guess another case of the famous Tejero syndrome. That guy really believed he was doing his country a favor. Or to put it midly he believed his own crap without seeing he got carried away. Let's pity mr pachangamac a bit. I think he needs it right now.

Take care

To jack the bear

Thank you for your post. it's nice to know someone can take the good things about Thailand and adapt and learn about your adopted country. I too have met many 'experts'. Many, in fact, in own country who have never been to the kingdom themselves. Everyone thinks I'm crazy but i'm pretty thick skinned and i know what i'm doing is right for me.

take care

To pachangamac042

Sorry my friend, I didn't realise I was writing a book.
I'm not trying to sell my story, just live it.

cheers