Thai Marriage Laws

[sundayjam]

I have the blood of three persecuted peoples in my veins. The sins of the past are not perpetuated through the generations, and I hold nothing against those who persecuted my ancestors. I could care less whether a person of my own blood persecutes me or someone who is not of my blood persecutes me. I just don't want to be persecuted either way. It's funny how xenophobes believe that another culture is more blood thirsty than their own.

Good luck to all. I will take my chances with the Thai marriage laws.

[Yasoboy]

Aussie John, Thank you for reading my comments posted above and if my comments offended you, please accepts my apologies. Reason for throwing those questions to you is that I am against your comments mentioning race. You've mentioned Chinese in Thailand. This could divide us and create races tension in this country which I strongly against. Thailand population is made up of many different races just like Australia. There are Chinese, Indian, Malay, Lao, Cambodian, Burmese, Vietnamese and of course indigenous Thai. As long as we are Thai citizen/nationality we are all known as Thai regardless what race group one belongs. We do not differentiate the race. Even among Thai people we don't ask the race of each individual and we all play our parts to contribute to the country.
Thailand is also multi-races country just like Australia. Do you call themselves English Australian, Chinese Australian, Thai Australian, Italian Australian, etc...? Or you all call yourselves just Australian?
You've mentioned Chinese in Thailand they now control not only Thailand economy but make up the highest percent in terms of representation within Thai government. In this world nowadays it is the same all over. The strongest, smartest, richest, willing to work hard, highly educated people control the economy and make it to the top in all fields. Not just in Thailand. South America countries, New Zealand, Canada, Singapore, Malaysia, Australia included and many more.
I wish all Thai people to live in harmony as one people without races problem. So please stop mentioning race when you post comments over here. I am sure you don’t wish to be called English Australian if your parent is from England or your children to be called Australian Thai if they become Thai Nationality in the future.
Last, please touch your heart and sincerely ask yourself. Are the immigrants in Thailand treat the indigenous people better than the immigrants in Australia treat their indigenous people? With around one million aborigines at the time of the White settlement, now it is only left with 470,000 and the more disadvantages minority. Who know, the aborigines could be better off today if without immigrates in their lands.

[Voice]

Good writing Yasoboy! Love to hear more from you soon! I suppose each country has it own policy and self protection policy against outsider. In most countries they will look after self interest first. If outsider could provides the thing that country is short of outsider could do quite well for themselves and the country that has accepted them. The married law in Thailand is no different from self protection policies that another countries might have. The downside could a slow progress as restriction may put off the investment that we need to make better lives for our people. Better jobs availability equal opportunity for our new generation after they graduated from study.

[Jason McDonald]

Dear Patrick

You are indeed lucky to be living in Australia. Australia is a very multi cultural country where, by and large cultures respect each other and get along well. There are isolated episodes where cultures clash but this is to be expected. i don't want to go over ground which has been posted adinfinitum on this website but some Thai people who post to this site keep repeating the same old stories. These are mainly about how bad the west was 200 to 400 years ago. Well given that the western countries present a less distorted view of history than many asian countries people in the west understand that we have been less than good global citizens in the past. But that was a long time ago. When Thai people come to Australia they are processed fairly and if they met the requirements they get PR and Citizenship. They are treated like other Australians, they can own land, even set up a Thai restuarant and actually work in it. They don't have to have a white or black Australian own 51% of their business. I could go on and on. Contrast this to living in Thailand were your thai wife has to have a special card from the hotel with her so she can prove that she is not a hooker when you go to Phuket for a holiday. Or that you get called Farang all the time not kon Farang. That you get called a guest in this country when you live here. That when you try to buy something like a car you get told mai dai or try to get a driving licence again mai dai or open a bank account again mai dai. Now i know you can do some of these things because i have done so; but to continually keep getting the mai dai statement drives me mad. Not to mention the kon thai special prices everywhere you go. I could go on and on. But patrick I will take the lead from you and move my Thai wife to Australia where all Thai people are treated equally and more to the point equal with everyother person in Australia. Then when we have children they will be children not half children as they would be in Thailand if we had them; becasue she is people Thai and I am non person farang (farang not kon farang). To prove the point currently in Australia we have a Prime Minister who was not born in Australia. And at least one Minister who is asian. Be honest is there any Thai person that could ever envisage a person who was not born a thai ever be elected to the office of PM? Or a farang born in Thailand whose parents are farang ever become a Minister? I don't want to go over ground that has been well and truely trodden and i apologise. But it is really good to have people post and open up this for discussion. This is great to see.
J

[Aussie John]

Hi Yasoboy.
Thanks for your response, its quite rare to have a Thai respond to outsiders who question what happens in Thailand.
I will try not to go over what I have written about the immigration laws that affect foriegners trying to reside in Thailand.
Yes Australia is a multi cultural country where everyone who becomes a national is free to move forward with real opportunity. Referring to things that happened in Australias past they are not relevant to the way the country is governed today. As Jason wrote outsiders who have become Australian may enter politics, buy homes, run businesses for themselves as well as express their cultural identity. It is enshirened in Australian law.
I am a mixed blood Australian with over five blood lines, I wish I could be a global citizen but thats just dreaming. When I have children they will be also multi cultural both Thai and Australian they will be taught the beauty of all cultures.
Race in Thailand like wealth is of importance as I have experienced not only with my extended Isaan family but from many other cultural groups in the kingdom. At the present time there is true disharmony in the kingdom between not only political groups but cultural groups. The wealthiest group are of Chinese origin and yes are hard working, industrious and good at business that is why they were given the opportunity to become full citizens all those years ago. Yet they also have centralised that power and wealth in the capital working alongside indigenous elites to creat the social environment you have today. They have the best schools and universities, while rural provinces have had little infrastructure.They have the strongest representation in government which benifits their friends and families. Is this a fair democracy.? This has caused much division. My wife and all her family acknowledge this. They for some reason accept what they know they can not achieve due to the way they are indirectly treated. Yes they are all Thai but treated different. You know this and I dont need to keep emphasising it. If there were true equality and no double standards you would not be experiencing what is presently happening.
A true democracy is made by the people for the people not just for one small group who for so long have controlled not only the economy but many of the instituitons in Thailand. Thailand does need social and educational reform. Saying one cultural group is intellectually inept due to their lack of education is a farce as they havent being given equal resources. I have been to schools in both Isaan and Bangkok. I see the differences. They do to and now they are asking for real change.
I have Chinese Thai freinds who when I told them I would marry someone from Isaan informed me I would have stupid children with dark skin. I have never thought in this way yet many in that cultural group do discriminate in this way. Even the Thai media portays this cultural group in a negative way. If they had the resources and education their own provinces would prosper. This is how democracies in western countries work not perfectly as you keep reminding me but better.
I would love to live in Thailand because I cherish the real Buddhist culture, one that upholds ethics and morals and treats all people equally. yet it is not this way at present.
No one looks down on my wife in Australia except those Bangkok Thais she has to work with. I tell her not to worry as in Australia she can be whoever she wants no matter her cultural background. She is given the opportuntiy and resources, that is what matters to her. She has never been a bar girl but yet many Thai in Australia assume she is. This is discrimination and I will stand up for her and her family if they are treated this way.
So Yasoboy you look into your heart and then tell me all Thais are equal no matter their cultural background and if you tell me they are I will not believe you as I am not a stupid farang who doesnt understand Thai culture.
I live with it eveyday it is part of me now.

[Voice]

Aussie John wrote “No one looks down on my wife in Australia except those Bangkok Thais she has to work with. I tell her not to worry as in Australia she can be whoever she wants no matter her cultural background. She is given the opportuntiy and resources, that is what matters to her. She has never been a bar girl but yet many Thai in Australia assume she is. This is discrimination and I will stand up for her and her family if they are treated this way.

Yes she shouldn’t worry about those who think badly of her. Most Thai who seen a girl married foreigners would have thought your wife would have been a bar girl without knowing her background first especially with dark skin. But because of our economic and equal opportunity is none existent in Thailand many Thai women & young girl seem to be lookout for foreign husband. It also true that most young Thai girls would find it easy to get a bar job or working as a girl for hire. It takes a lot of courage to do what they do whether they wanted to or not. Since our culture have deep root of family value it a responsibility of the children to look after their parent when comes to age. As job is so very hard to find in Thailand some would have very little choice but to work as a bar girl. Once they have got into this kind of work they would become much harder in their emotion and principle for survival. So if a person have a chance to live aboard they’re lives would be much happiest but yet you never can get away with some Thai looking down on them. So stay away from those people would be the answer. You won’t believe it won’t you that we have races problem in Thailand between bard skin and white skin colour person. But it’s very true indeed that this problem has been existed for hundred of years in our culture. We need to learn to have respect for easy other as we all Thais doesn’t matter what colour skin we are. As for the married law it has to do with being independent from colonisation by foreign race. This is something that the old establishment always worried about that is why the law were made for that reason to protect the invasion of an outsider.

[patrickoniam]

guys guys guys
thanks for the response, i truly appreciate your views and theyre fine with me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion
I have been in Australia since i was 5 and now im 31. I love Australia, and like you guys said - it has provided me with opportunities that i might not have gotten back in Thailand. And i do feel that i have been treated equally here is OZ just like if i was a farang or was born here.i didnt come here just to get citizenship ( obviously i had no choice when i was brought here ) I was still a little kid. However, i am grateful for the life that australia has given me.
But what i wrote is just what i feel why those marriage laws were put in place and its just from things that ive been told about or found out myself from the many many trips ive done back to thailand.Something i didnt write in my last post was I think that the laws should be abit more relaxed than what they are- just like anything else in thailand.
They way that i see it, if you are married to a Thai woman or man - you should be granted PR type visa like you get here in Australia - still following normal procedures and formalities of corse - then once you get granted that, you should then be allowed to purchase a land and a house at least.I do agree that much with all of you.
Im not trying to go back on what i said in the last post because i still feel that the laws are like that in thailand for the reasons i stated , but they could be abit more lenient.
But in regards to Thai people coming to say, here, Australia. i cant talk about thai people in other countries cause i dont know what laws are there, but I think that the majority of thai people who are PR's or have citizenships here, have been here for quite a while now. like im talking at least 10 to 15 years, like myself.
But you will find, like i have , with most thais these day, they just want to come to learn and study then they will go home.
yes, theyll probably work here - and they wont get much as their visa only allows 20hrs a week - save a little money then go back. I have found that very few thais actually want to stay here, the majority of the ones that i have talked to would rather go home and try to make it there.
anyway, i can see where you guys are all coming from with your point of views and i do agree with some of the things you say and i do think that thai marriage laws are a little too strict. I think that they could ease it a little and still be fair to both thais and farangs.
But also think about this guys - how many foreigners, not only aussies can go to thailand and be able to afford to buy a house and land and business etc. alot
and how many thais can got to another country and be able to afford a house, land etc - not many
especially here in australia as prices of house is riduculous and not affordable. Most thais that come here have already spent their life earnings/savings already just to pay for a student visa and school here
and the visa laws in australia have become alot more strict too in the past 5 or so years so its not that easy anymore for anyone just to come here and become citizen. I know this because i have a few thai friends at the moment going throught his process and i have seen what is involved
so just think - before a thai can even own a house or land here - what they have to go through and spend just to get here, let alone buying house or land.Aussies can go to thailand for what? 30 days without getting a visa. Thais have to apply for a visa with the chance of it being denied just to holiday here. The government knows this - as much as id like to think that theyre stupid, these are the facts. They can see that its much easier for a foreigner to go to thailand and start a new life there than it is for a thai to go overseas and start a new life there. and i guess thats why the law is the way that it is in thailand for foreigners. regardless of what i think, this is just the way it is.
so you see, its not as easy anymore for thais just to come here and move their whole lives here - even if you are married to an aussie.
but i still agree with what voice said. every country has the right to protect its own welfare and interests, but hopefully in thailand, with a little more leniency

[Aussie John]

"The current government have their laws to protect their own citizens." Now if this is the joke of the century, please tell when to stop laughing. Which Thai government have ever looked after their citizens in an ethical and moral way.
I'm not talking about the Australian government here now just in case you start to get derogratory again.
Yes the Thai laws don't need to change as my wife and myself reside happily in Australia. We both work hard and are trying to save for our family both here in Oz and our extended family in Isaan.
I try to be a good Australian and can't help that I was born into a nation that has a difficult past, but hopefully that will change. I have close freinds in the Aboriginal community here and they accept me for who I am.
I am disappointed I do not have the option have Thai PR through marriage but so be it. I am quite happy where I am. I know when I am not wanted and do not need to be constantly told and reminded about things that I know already exist and have passed.
Thanks

[Yasoboy]

[color=#FF80BF] by Aussie John on Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:07 pm

Yasoboy.
Early last century there were many Chinese immigrants who resided in the kingdom but were refused full citizenship. The ////// at the time gave them the opportunity to gain full citzenship and they had to change their surname, Many of these immigrants grew to become much of the Thai elite today. Yes indigenous Thai have some Chinese blood historically but their cultural background was Thai. The indigenous elite and that of the sino/Thai inter married.
I do not wont to get into another racial argument about who controls who. But just because some one changes their surname does not mean they reliquish their former culture .

[/color]

In early last century at least the Thai had the right to refuse the Chinese full citizenship. The Chinese Thai did not bring their army from China and ask the Thai people to accept them as citizen. Like you’ve mentioned, the Chinese Thais citizenship was given by the //////. And Chinese Thais are willing to change their names and surnames to compromise.

Unlike in US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, some Africa counties and all the South America counties. When few centuries ago, White landed in these countries with their armies with guns and steels, colonized them and claimed that their lands. The indigenous people don’t even have the right to refuse the White. Many centuries ago, the Chinese are the most advance and stronger in the region, but they have never tried to colonize anyone. They only trades with in South East Asia countries and eventually settled down in these countries.

In this world nowadays, people are all the same regardless where you are from, your race, background and religion. We are so mobile and move around and migrate. The strongest, smartest, willing to change and work hard will make it to the top and all the above that I have mentioned is history. So please stop mentioning Chinese Thai in Thailand of what they have achieved. We Thais know better than you. If you want to mention again, then you should look at your own backyard of what you White have done to those countries that I’ve mentioned above.
Many Thanks for reading. Yasoboy

[Aussie John]

Yasoboy
I take it you are Chinese/Thai so I can understand your outpouring of support and refusal to look into the nature of disporas throuhout Asia. You lack the historical knowledge to understand the cultural strength of Chinese disporas in South East Asia. Contemporary colonialism has seen many Aisan disporas let freely into host nations only to disrupt the economic and social balance of the host. e.g. Malaysia, Indonesia and the Solomons. I call passive colonialisation but you will probably dispute this. Do some research on contemporary social structures within South East Asia. Its part of my own social research which I have spent years looking at.
I agree the Chinese Thai have given the Thai nation economic strength through their industrious hard work and initiative.
Yes very similar to the colonising white man but the laws are different . The Thai nation has colonised many parts of the country in both the North East and the south where much of the kingdoms present problems are coming from. Why is this.? I am trying to understand the nature of laws that have been created to dissuade certain people from imigrating to the kingdom. At present the laws are quite inhibitive and its not about old style colonialism that would not be tolerated in todays global economy. Most western countries accept spouses from foreign countries they are accepted and encouraged through support to intergrate.
My wife is not Chinese Thai, nor is she or ever has been a prostitute as insinuated by previous posters. She has a job and works hard here in Oz as do many Thais. Yet she still cops discrimination from Bangkok Thais. Why is this.? Australia is a free nation with close economic links with Thailand. We have a huge Thai community that has been more than willing to immigrate here. If we were so oppressive as you keep telling me why do they continue to come in their thousands.?
Our laws are fairer for those with foreign spouses they dont treat them as criminals.
Thais have been indoctrinated into believing outsiders want to take over. With a complex culture such as Thailand this is totally impossible. Thailand is strategically positioned and is backed militarily by the USA another evil coloniser.
If you are an intelligent Thai you would be able to see the reconcillation problems in your own country. There is true disparity not only between the social classes but also the diverse cultural regions. The feudal system never trully left, it just has been modified to suit those who economically control the kingdom. There are over forty million rural Thai who due to their social class and cultural background are denied opportunity due the deliberate lack of economic and educational investment in their regions. They must seperate from their families in much the same way as Chinese rural people do and go to work in the economically centeralised capital cities which are controlled by elite families who are mostly from a elite Chinese/Thai backgrounds. This is a social reality. Social groups from diffewrent cultural backgrounds although being all Thai are definitely not equal. Yes I can hear you coming at me again about my own countries past but you fail to understand our laws now. Australia is a modern nation I should not be held responsible for my fore fathers actions I try to move forward in a fair and humane way. Chai mai. We do not deny Thai with Australians spouses the right to feel secure. When they have PR they are given almost the same treatment as Australian citizens. That the Thai government has tougher immigration laws in my eyes is not about colonialisation that you keep harping on about. It goes deeper than that and if you were to look outside of the shallow, unquestioning education most Thais receive you would understand that all Thais are not free and equal. You are being decieved but as most Thais have been instructed and usually retort Farangs are stupid and could never understand the contadictory nature of Thai culture. I put it to you most Thais wouldn't understand it either as what appears at the face is not what is hidden on the inside.
My wife and I are happy here in Oz. Thailand is the one that misses out, as the world is a global community where people who are inter related in most cases are given the opportunity to move freely and not deliberately shut out if they dont have enough CASH to bypass archaic laws that are made for the few.
Yet again this is a topic on Thai marriage laws. So many Thai journalists in this paper have written about the injustices of the government and Thai elite and the laws that they create for the masses but do not abide by themselves. Why do these intelligent Thais who write get the opportunity to express their views on injustices yet foreigners are treated as stupid with no right to comment on things that directly affect them and their REAL Thai families.
As I used to write many years ago.
Long live the POOR as they are the true owners of Thailand for without them all Thais would not be able to survive.
So treat them with respect and allow their foreign partners to trully support them as they allowed to in many western nations.